M. L. West's Greek Prose Composition

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jeidsath
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M. L. West's Greek Prose Composition

Post by jeidsath »

Dickey's Composition book contains M. L. West's translation of the following section from W. S. Landor's Imaginary Conversations of Literary Men and Statesmen: https://books.google.com/books?id=U_BLAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA489

The section that begins:

Newton: I had something more, sir, to say...

and concludes:

...nor think the milling pays for the alloy.

M. L. West:
Καὶ ὅς, ἤθελον δέ, ἔφη, ὦ Θρασύμαχε, ὁ Γλαύκων, καὶ ἄλλο τι λέγειν, ἢ μᾶλλον ἄλλο τι ἤθελόν σε ἐρέσθαι περὶ τῆς φιλίας. καὶ ὁ Θρασύμαχος, πάντας μέν, ἔφη, δεῖ φυλάττεσθαι αὐτὴν τίνα τρόπον ποιήσονται, τοὺς δὲ φιλομαθεῖς πάντων μάλιστα. οἱ μὲν γὰρ νεώτεροι ἐάν τι παραινῶσιν ἢ νουθετῶσι περὶ τούτου τοῦ πράγματος, ὡς πρὸ καιροῦ καὶ οὐ πρεπόντως λεγόμενον ἄν τις ἀκούοι· φανερὸς δ’ ἂν εἴη ὁ νουθετῶν ἢ θράσους μεστὸς ὢν ἢ ὑποψίας. ἀλλ’ ὅταν παρὰ τηλικοῦδε ἀνδρὸς ἀκούσῃς, ὑπερφυῶς τε αὐτοῦ ηὐτυχηκότος καὶ ὁμοίαν προορῶντος τὴν εὐδαιμονίαν ἐν τοῖς ἐγγὺς αὐξανομένοις, ἀποδεκτέον ὡς θεωροῦ σώφρονος ποδηγοῦντος καὶ πάντα διδάσκοντος ὅσα εἶδε κατὰ τὴν ὁδόν, ἅτε πολλὴν ἤδη πεπορευμένος καὶ ἐγγὺς ὢν τοῦ τέλους, σὺ δ’ ἄρτι ὥρμησαι. μηδέποτε οὖν μηδένα ποιοῦ φίλον μηδὲ φοιτᾶν ἔα παρὰ σοί, ὅστις μὴ πλέονα σοῦ εἰδῇ σπουδαίου τινὸς πράγματος πέρι. οὐδὲν γὰρ διαφέρει οὔτε γένους οὔτ’ ἀρετῶν πῶς ἔχει, ἀλλ’ ἐπιτηδεύοντά σε ὁτιοῦν κωλύσει καὶ τῶν μεγάλων ἐφιεμένῳ ἐμποδὼν γενήσεται. καὶ μὴν εἰ περὶ τοιούτου μεγέθους σπουδάζοις οἷον βασιλεὺς ἂν δωροῖτο, ἢ οἷον ἂν καὶ δούλῳ περιβαλλόμενον ἐξισοῖ ἂν αὐτὸν τῷ ἄλλῳ ὁμίλῳ προσορᾶν, οὐκ ἄν εἰς καιρὸν ταῦτα παρῄνουν· ἀλλ’ ἐπεὶ τὰ ὡς ἀληθῶς καὶ ἐτύμως ὑπερβάλλοντα μεγέθη οὐκ ἔστιν εἰ μὴ αὐτὸν ἐν ἑαυτῷ τρέφειν, μηδὲ ἐπ’ ἄλλων τινῶν ἢ τῶν ὑπὸ τοῦ θεοῦ τεθειμένων βάθρων, οὐδένα ἄλλον ἐατέον μετασχεῖν τοῦ πράγματος, ἀλλὰ πάντως ἀπαμυντέον, μὴ φορτικῶς ἀλλ’ ὅμως. καὶ μὴ προσποιοῦ αὐτάρκης τις εἶναι μηδὲ ὑπεροπτικός· τὸ ἐκείνων νόμισμα δέχου καὶ μὴ ἀποδοκίμαζε, ἀλλ’ ὅπως μὴ ἀνταλλάξῃ αὐτὸ τοῦ ἀπέφθου χρυσίου ὅ σὺ ἔχεις, μηδὲ τοῦ καλοῦ χαρακτῆρος ἕνεκα τὸ κίβδηλον τιμήσεις.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: M. L. West's Greek Prose Composition

Post by mwh »

Doesn’t he make it look easy? Plato is extremely hard to get right, but this would fool anyone. I wonder if West chose the passage as representing his own philosophy—but τὸ ἐκείνων νόμισμα δέχου καὶ μὴ ἀποδοκίμαζε hardly suits.

Do we want to discuss any points in it? I was a bit taken aback by … οὐκ ἔστιν εἰ μὴ αὐτὸν ἐν ἑαυτῷ τρέφειν, but it rings true—in fact it seems exactly right.

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Re: M. L. West's Greek Prose Composition

Post by Timothée »

In Hesperos, MLW reminisces: "At St Paul’s School in London a legendary pair of teachers, W. W. Cruickshank and E. P. C. Cotter, concentrated on instilling in us a sense of Greek and Latin grammar and style. Week after week we translated passages of English prose and verse into Greek or Latin prose or verse, and our exercises were minutely and individually corrected and appraised."

I would have adored something similar in my school years, but we had long before lost this tradition. :(

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Re: M. L. West's Greek Prose Composition

Post by jeidsath »

In the interests of discussion, I haven't read the English version yet, so here is my translation for correction. It is poor in the second half especially, I think.

I’m experimenting with “well…but/and” for “μεν…δε”

I have been reading a fair amount of Plato lately. At least for the first tetralogy and the Republic, I can mostly sight-read and translate aloud after a couple of readings. This I had to really work at.

I think that the names, Glaucon and Thrasymachus, might tell us West's opinion of the advice. However that might depend on his opinion of the Republic.
“But I was hoping,” said Glaucon, “to speak about another matter, Thrasymachus. Actually, I wanted to ask you about friendship.”

“Well, everyone has to watch out about friendship, and what sort they make, but especially lovers of learning,” replied Thrasymachus. “And well, the youngest, if they recommend something or think about this matter, it seems something rash and an unsuitable choice if someone listens to them, and it’s obvious the one recommending is full of courage or of suspicion. Yet whenever you will listen to an older man, most of all to a prosperous man, and one who forsees the same happiness in the ones close to him prospering, it needs to be taken like an oracle of a wise guide teaching what he has seen along the road, when he has already completed much of the journey and is near the goal, while you have just begun. Indeed, you should never make anyone a friend, nor allow him to roam about with you, who does not know more than you about some weighty matter. One who does not surpass you in anything, either in family or the virtues he has, chosen by you he will hinder you and prevent you from that greatest endeavors and become an obstacle. And indeed, if you are earnest about this sort of greatness, to give like a king, or like one who makes a servant equal to himself in dress for the rest of the crowd to behold, I should not advise this as profitable, rather, since the things really and truly called surpassing greatness are nothing if he shall not rear himself, neither from things of others, or from the foundations set by God, no one else can be suffered to partake in the matter, but all must be warded off, not vulgarly, but nevertheless. For someone self-sufficient neither moves first nor is disdainful: take the coins of others and do not reject them, but all the same you do not exchange it for the raw gold you have, neither on account of the beautiful engraving will you set the value of the metal.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: M. L. West's Greek Prose Composition

Post by Hylander »

προποιοῦ in the third line from the bottom -- shouldn't it be προσποιοῦ?

σὺ δ’ ἄρτι ὥρμησαι -- ὥρμησαις?
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Re: M. L. West's Greek Prose Composition

Post by mwh »

Surely yes to προσποιοῦ, but no to ὥρμησαις (is that even a form?). The perfect is perfect.

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Re: M. L. West's Greek Prose Composition

Post by jeidsath »

προσποιοῦ in the text. A transcription error on my part, I've fixed it above. ὥρμησαι in the text.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: M. L. West's Greek Prose Composition

Post by mwh »

@jeidsath. You’ve come quite close to understanding some of this. I’d suggest you compare the original English with West’s translation and see where you’ve gone wrong or not got it quite right.

Meanwhile taking it as it stands:
πάντας μέν, ἔφη, δεῖ φυλάττεσθαι αὐτὴν τίνα τρόπον ποιήσονται,
Not “Well, everyone has to watch out about friendship, and what sort they make”. No “and,” τίνα τροπον is “how” (in what manner)

οἱ μὲν γὰρ νεώτεροι
Not “the youngest”

ἐάν τι παραινῶσιν ἢ νουθετῶσι περὶ τούτου τοῦ πράγματος
Not “if they recommend something or think about this matter”. τι with both verbs, and νουθετωσι is not “think.”

ὡς πρὸ καιροῦ καὶ οὐ πρεπόντως λεγόμενον ἄν τις ἀκούοι
Not “it seems something rash and an unsuitable choice if someone listens to them”.
αν is not “if” (the if-clause was the εαν clause, this is the main clause), and λεγομενον is simply “said/spoken.” (Position of modal αν worth noting, btw: ὡς-Χ άν τις ακουοι.)
Lit. “someone would hear [what they παραινωσιν η νουθετωσιν] as spoken προ κ. …”

etc.

Picking out a couple of other places at random:

οὐδὲν γὰρ διαφέρει οὔτε γένους οὔτ’ ἀρετῶν πῶς ἔχει
Not “One who does not surpass you in anything, either in family or the virtues he has,”
Lit. “It makes no difference how he has either of γενος or αρεται” i.e. “It doesn’t matter what his genos or aretai are”

ἐπιτηδεύοντά σε ὁτιοῦν κωλύσει καὶ τῶν μεγάλων ἐφιεμένῳ ἐμποδὼν γενήσεται
Not “chosen by you [?!] he will hinder you and prevent you from that greatest endeavors and become an obstacle.” Notice how it runs:
ἐπιτηδεύοντά σε ὁτιοῦν
κωλύσει
και
τῶν μεγάλων ἐφιεμένῳ (sc. σοι)
ἐμποδὼν γενήσεται.

τὰ ὡς ἀληθῶς καὶ ἐτύμως ὑπερβάλλοντα μεγέθη οὐκ ἔστιν εἰ μὴ αὐτὸν ἐν ἑαυτῷ τρέφειν
Not “the things really and truly called surpassing greatness are nothing if he shall not rear himself”
τὰ … μεγέθη is object of τρεφειν. It’s not possible to nurture genuinely surpassing greatness “except oneself in oneself.”

καὶ μὴ προποιοῦ αὐτάρκης τις εἶναι
Not “For someone self-sufficient neither moves first”. That wd be αυταρκης γαρ τις ων ουτε προποιεῖ. μη is imperative. (But προποιοῦ must be a typo or misprint for προσποιοῦ.) You should have seen it’s και not γαρ, μη not ου, προ(σ)ποιοῦ not –εῖ, ειναι not ων.

Before trying to translate you need to respect what the Greek is telling you.
Last edited by mwh on Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: M. L. West's Greek Prose Composition

Post by Hylander »

ὥρμησαι -- ok perfect. Duh.

ἐάν τι -- "whatever" better than "if anything"
Last edited by Hylander on Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: M. L. West's Greek Prose Composition

Post by mwh »

Perfect middle indicative, isn't it? Joel got this right.

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Re: M. L. West's Greek Prose Composition

Post by jeidsath »

My corrections to my translation below, following your comments.
mwh wrote: πάντας μέν, ἔφη, δεῖ φυλάττεσθαι αὐτὴν τίνα τρόπον ποιήσονται,
Not “Well, everyone has to watch out about friendship, and what sort they make”. No “and,” τίνα τροπον is “how” (in what manner)
"All, he said, need to guard in what manner they make it [friendship]."
mwh wrote:οἱ μὲν γὰρ νεώτεροι
Not “the youngest”
"Younger men" (the article is a class, so not necessary in English).
mwh wrote:ἐάν τι παραινῶσιν ἢ νουθετῶσι περὶ τούτου τοῦ πράγματος
Not “if they recommend something or think about this matter”. τι with both verbs, and νουθετωσι is not “think.”
Whenever they recommend or admonish something about this matter...
(ἐάν with subj. pres.)
mwh wrote:ὡς πρὸ καιροῦ καὶ οὐ πρεπόντως λεγόμενον ἄν τις ἀκούοι
Not “it seems something rash and an unsuitable choice if someone listens to them”.
αν is not “if” (the if-clause was the εαν clause, this is the main clause), and λεγομενον is simply “said/spoken.” (Position of modal αν worth noting, btw: ὡς-Χ άν τις ακουοι.)
Lit. “someone would hear [what they παραινωσιν η νουθετωσιν] as spoken προ κ. …”
"Someone would hear it as spoken rashly or unsuitably" (you've translated this one for me).
mwh wrote:οὐδὲν γὰρ διαφέρει οὔτε γένους οὔτ’ ἀρετῶν πῶς ἔχει
Not “One who does not surpass you in anything, either in family or the virtues he has,”
Lit. “It makes no difference how he has either of γενος or αρεται” i.e. “It doesn’t matter what his genos or aretai are”
You have translated for me, thank you.
mwh wrote:ἐπιτηδεύοντά σε ὁτιοῦν κωλύσει καὶ τῶν μεγάλων ἐφιεμένῳ ἐμποδὼν γενήσεται
Not “chosen by you [?!] he will hinder you and prevent you from that greatest endeavors and become an obstacle.” Notice how it runs:
ἐπιτηδεύοντά σε ὁτιοῦν
κωλύσει
και
τῶν μεγάλων ἐφιεμένῳ (sc. σοι)
ἐμποδὼν γενήσεται.
ἐφιεμένῳ σοι would be an ethical dative then. I'm not sure exactly who that hooks up with the genitive. My best guess:

"you practicing whatever it is shall hinder and become an obstacle for your greatest desires" (desires of greatness?)
mwh wrote:τὰ ὡς ἀληθῶς καὶ ἐτύμως ὑπερβάλλοντα μεγέθη οὐκ ἔστιν εἰ μὴ αὐτὸν ἐν ἑαυτῷ τρέφειν
Not “the things really and truly called surpassing greatness are nothing if he shall not rear himself”
τὰ … μεγέθη is object of τρεφειν. It’s not possible to nurture genuinely surpassing greatness “except oneself in oneself.”
You have translated for me, thank you.
mwh wrote:καὶ μὴ προποιοῦ αὐτάρκης τις εἶναι
Not “For someone self-sufficient neither moves first”. That wd be αυταρκης γαρ τις ων ουτε προποιεῖ. μη is imperative. (But προποιοῦ must be a typo or misprint for προσποιοῦ.) You should have seen it’s και not γαρ, μη not ου, προ(σ)ποιοῦ not –εῖ, ειναι not ων.
And you should not pretend to be someone self-sufficient.
mwh wrote:Before trying to translate you need to respect what the Greek is telling you.
I do my best! I will read through the English source next.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: M. L. West's Greek Prose Composition

Post by Hylander »

Perfect middle indicative, isn't it?
Yes, this was embarrassing and shameful, and it shows how tenuous my grasp on Greek is, but here are some suggestions anyway.

ἀλλ’ ἐπιτηδεύοντά σε ὁτιοῦν κωλύσει
καὶ τῶν μεγάλων ἐφιεμένῳ [σοι] ἐμποδὼν γενήσεται --

"but if/when you prepare [to accomplish] (ἐπιτηδεύοντά) anything whatsoever, he will hinder you,
and he will be an obstacle to you if/when you strive for great things"

πάντας μέν δεῖ φυλάττεσθαι αὐτὴν τίνα τρόπον ποιήσονται, -- "everyone needs to be careful how they form friendships"

ἤθελον δέ καὶ ἄλλο τι λέγειν, ἢ μᾶλλον ἄλλο τι ἤθελόν σε ἐρέσθαι περὶ τῆς φιλίας -- "I wanted to say something else, too, or rather, I wanted to ask you something else about friendship"

ἢ θράσους μεστὸς ὢν ἢ ὑποψίας -- "either full of rashness or suspicion"

τηλικοῦδε ἀνδρὸς -- "a man of this (i.e., my) age"

ὑπερφυῶς τε αὐτοῦ ηὐτυχηκότος καὶ ὁμοίαν προορῶντος τὴν εὐδαιμονίαν ἐν τοῖς ἐγγὺς αὐξανομένοις, -- "himself very successful and foreseeing [the] good fortune to be similar in those who are growing up near him"

μηδὲ φοιτᾶν ἔα παρὰ σοί, -- "nor allow him to associate with you"

οὐκ ἄν εἰς καιρὸν ταῦτα παρῄνουν -- "I wouldn't be giving this advice to good effect"

ἀπαμυντέον -- maybe "guarded against" would be better.

ἀλλὰ πάντως ἀπαμυντέον, μὴ φορτικῶς ἀλλ’ ὅμως -- "you should be on your guard [against them] by all means--not rudely, but still (ὅμως) [you should be on your guard]"
Last edited by Hylander on Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:44 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: M. L. West's Greek Prose Composition

Post by mwh »

Joel, I was puzzled by your “all the same you do not exchange it” for ἀλλ’ ὅπως μὴ ἀνταλλάξῃ αὐτὸ, but I belatedly realize you’d misread ὅπως as ὅμως. ὅπως μὴ + future is an idiom, “(see to it) that you don’t …,” very strong. If you missed οπως you should have picked up on the μη (not ου). You might mistake ἀνταλλάξῃ for aor.subj.(act.) rather than fut.indic.(middle), but that wd be 3d person and we need 2nd, so it can’t be aor.subj. and must be future, even if you don't know the idiom. (And it’s not “exchange it” but “take it in exchange.”) Again, you have to read more carefully.

We can all learn a lot about Greek from paying close attention to how West renders the English. Forms of expression, word choice, word order, connectives (and one asyndeton), …. His translation is as faithful to the meaning of the English as can be, while reading very naturally as Greek.

PS You need to have another go at ἐπιτηδεύοντά σε ὁτιοῦν κωλύσει καὶ τῶν μεγάλων ἐφιεμένῳ ἐμποδὼν γενήσεται.
And rather than simply modifying your back-translation, you should make an effort to understand your errors in comprehension of West’s Greek. The things I fastened on were just a small sampling.

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Re: M. L. West's Greek Prose Composition

Post by ailuros »

one of the reasons i tend to crawl when reading is because i have the bad habit (and this is a bit embarrassing) of tending to think that i know where the author is going with the narrative, then trying to cram the greek into my own misunderstanding of the narrative. of course this fails, miserably. if i don't read really carefully i miss a lot.

to solve this shortcoming i have to learn to read one word at a time, and develop the kind of RAM/suspense capacity that will allow me to hold the words in mind until i get to the end and see how it all works together (i imagine that to be a pretty delightful experience when the writing is good). it's hard, but i am determined to do it! and i look forward to pondering west's work when i get there in dickey's book.

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Re: M. L. West's Greek Prose Composition

Post by jeidsath »

After paying careful attention to everything that Hylander and mwh have written, I've gone through it again and translated from scratch. I believe that I understand the function of most of the constructions now.

I still have some trouble, I think, in the sentence "And indeed, if you should be endeavor..."
“And I wished,” said Glaucon, “to speak of something else, Thrasymachus, or rather, I wished to ask something else about friendship.”

Thrasymachus replied: “Well, all people need to take care in what way they make friends, but lovers of learning most of all. For if younger folk were to advise something or rebuke something about this matter, someone would hear what they say as rash and inappropriate, and the advisor would appear to be full of over-boldness or suspicion. But, whenever you would listen to a man of such an age as me, most of all to one who is prosperous, who looks forward to the same happiness among those growing up near him, it should be taken as an oracle of a wise guide and everything that he teaches as what he has seen along the road when he has already completed much of the journey and is close to the end, when you have just set out. Indeed, never make anyone your friend, nor allow him to roam with you, who is not more earnest than you in the knowledge of something. For it makes no difference how he is in regarding family or virtue, but he will prevent you from pursuing anything, and become an obstacle to you in your grand desires. And indeed, if you should be endeavor about the sort of greatness that is like a king giving, or like someone clothing even a slave make him equal to himself for the rest of the crowd to behold, I would not advise it as beneficial. But since, except by the self in itself, the true and truly called surpassing greatness cannot be nurtured, neither from things of others, nor from a foundation laid down by god, no other need be suffered to share in the matter, but all others need to be warded off, not vulgarly, but nevertheless. Do not affect to be a self-sufficient person, nor a contemptuous one, accept their coin and do not reject it, but take care not to exchange it for the refined gold that you possess, nor value the adulterated coin on account of its stamp.
mwh wrote:And rather than simply modifying your back-translation, you should make an effort to understand your errors in comprehension of West’s Greek. The things I fastened on were just a small sampling.
Yes, that is why I post it. I certainly don't go through this sort of trial in a public forum for the sake of my pride. It is so that you and Hylander (and everyone else) can advise me of my errors.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: M. L. West's Greek Prose Composition

Post by Hylander »

More suggestions:

ὅταν παρὰ τηλικοῦδε ἀνδρὸς ἀκούσῃς -- subjunctive, not optative. "when[ever] you are listening to a man of my age"

θεωροῦ -- observer

φοιτᾶν παρὰ σοί -- frequent
4. resort to a person as a friend, φ. παρά τινα visit him, Pl.Phd.59d, Euthd.295d, La.181c, etc.; παρ᾽ ἡμᾶς “φ. ὡς παρὰ φίλους” Id.R.328d; “πρὸς τὴν συνουσίαν τινός” Id.Lg.624a; “σφιν ἑκατέρωσε” Id.Grg.523b.
b. resort to a person or place for any purpose, “ἐφοίτων παρὰ τὸν Δηϊόκεα . . δικασόμενοι” Hdt.1.96; “παρά τινα φ. ἐς λόγους” Id.7.103; φ. ἔς τε πολέμους καὶ ἐς ἄγρας, ἔς τε ἀγορὴν καὶ ἐξ ἀγορῆς, Id.1.37; “ἐς τὰ χρηστήρια” Id.6.125; “εἰς τὸ ἱερὸν ἑκάστης ἡμέρας” Pl.Lg.794b; φ. πρὸς τοὺς Ἀθηναίους, of embassies from the subject states, Th.1.95; φοιτᾶν ἐπὶ τὰς θύρας τινός frequent, wait at a great man's door, Hdt.3.119, X.Cyr.8.1.8, HG.1.6.10; later, “φ. ἐπὶ θύρας” Plu.Aem.10, Luc.DMort.9.2, etc.; “ἐπὶ θύραις” Plu.Cat. Mi.21 (s. v. l.); “ἐπὶ τὴν ἐμὴν οἰκίαν” Lys.3.29, cf. Aeschin.1.58; “εἰς τὸ ἱερόν” IG7.235.2 (Oropus, iv B. C.); also “φ. εἰς συσσίτια” Pl.R. 416e; “ἄκλητος φοιτᾷς ἐπὶ δεῖπνον” Cratin.45 (anap.), cf. Eup.162 (lyr.); “εἰς καπήλου φ.” Plu.2.643c; “εἰς Ἱπποθωντίδ᾽ ἐφοίτα φυλὴν χορεύσων” D.39.23; of a company of actors, “φ. τισι εἰς τὴν πόλιν” Pl.Lg. 817a.: abs., of a suitor, “φοιτῶν ἐναργὴς ταῦρος, ἄλλοτ᾽ αἰόλος δράκων . . ἄλλοτ᾽ ἀνδρείῳ κύτει βούπρῳρος” S.Tr.11.
c. of a dream that visits one frequently, haunts one, “ἐν ὀνείρασι φοιτῶσα” E.Alc.355; “πολλάκις μοι φοιτῶν τὸ αὐτὸ ἐνύπνιον” Pl.Phd.60e.
οὐδένα ἄλλον ἐατέον μετασχεῖν τοῦ πράγματος -- no one else must be allowed to share . . .

εἰ περὶ τοιούτου μεγέθους σπουδάζοις οἷον βασιλεὺς ἂν δωροῖτο -- if you should be angling for the sort of greatness that a king might confer

But again, as mwh noted, the point of this exercise is not to translate manufactured Greek into English--you can open any page of Plato and translate real Greek into English--but to see how West has taken an English passage and rendered it into a highly plausible imitation of Platonic Greek: grammatical constructions, idioms, connective particles, nuanced vocabulary, transforming English abstract expressions into concrete Greek ones, and 19th century English thoughts into ideas that might almost be recognizable in the ancient world, etc. You can learn more about Greek by comparing the Greek with the English original word by word, clause by clause, sentence by sentence, than by trying to translate the Greek back into English.
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Re: M. L. West's Greek Prose Composition

Post by Timothée »

Can it be inferred that for Martin West Plato epitomised Greek prose?

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Re: M. L. West's Greek Prose Composition

Post by jeidsath »

Hylander wrote:You can learn more about Greek by comparing the Greek with the English original word by word, clause by clause, sentence by sentence, than by trying to translate the Greek back into English.
Newton. I had something more, sir, to say . . or rather . . I had something more, sir, to ask . . about Friendship.
Καὶ ὅς, ἤθελον δέ, ἔφη, ὦ Θρασύμαχε, ὁ Γλαύκων, καὶ ἄλλο τι λέγειν, ἢ μᾶλλον ἄλλο τι ἤθελόν σε ἐρέσθαι περὶ τῆς φιλίας.

Barrow. All men, but the studious above all, must beware in the formation of it.
καὶ ὁ Θρασύμαχος, πάντας μέν, ἔφη, δεῖ φυλάττεσθαι αὐτὴν τίνα τρόπον ποιήσονται, τοὺς δὲ φιλομαθεῖς πάντων μάλιστα.

Advice or caution on this subject comes immaturely and ungracefully from the young, exhibiting a proof either of temerity or suspicion:
οἱ μὲν γὰρ νεώτεροι ἐάν τι παραινῶσιν ἢ νουθετῶσι περὶ τούτου τοῦ πράγματος, ὡς πρὸ καιροῦ καὶ οὐ πρεπόντως λεγόμενον ἄν τις ἀκούοι· φανερὸς δ’ ἂν εἴη ὁ νουθετῶν ἢ θράσους μεστὸς ὢν ἢ ὑποψίας.

He has changed the subject here because it would be hard to express "immaturely and ungracefully" directly?

but when you hear it from a man of my age, who has been singularly fortunate in the past, and foresees the same felicity in those springing up before him, you may accept it as the direction of a calm observer, telling you all he has remarked, on the greater part of a road which he has nearly gone through, and which you have but just entered.
ἀλλ’ ὅταν παρὰ τηλικοῦδε ἀνδρὸς ἀκούσῃς, ὑπερφυῶς τε αὐτοῦ ηὐτυχηκότος καὶ ὁμοίαν προορῶντος τὴν εὐδαιμονίαν ἐν τοῖς ἐγγὺς αὐξανομένοις, ἀποδεκτέον ὡς θεωροῦ σώφρονος ποδηγοῦντος καὶ πάντα διδάσκοντος ὅσα εἶδε κατὰ τὴν ὁδόν, ἅτε πολλὴν ἤδη πεπορευμένος καὶ ἐγγὺς ὢν τοῦ τέλους, σὺ δ’ ἄρτι ὥρμησαι.

Never take into your confidence, or admit often into your company, any man who does not know, on some important subject, more than you do.
μηδέποτε οὖν μηδένα ποιοῦ φίλον μηδὲ φοιτᾶν ἔα παρὰ σοί, ὅστις μὴ πλέονα σοῦ εἰδῇ σπουδαίου τινὸς πράγματος πέρι.

Be has rank, be his virtues, what they may, he will be a hindrance to your pursuits, and an obstruction to your greatness.
οὐδὲν γὰρ διαφέρει οὔτε γένους οὔτ’ ἀρετῶν πῶς ἔχει, ἀλλ’ ἐπιτηδεύοντά σε ὁτιοῦν κωλύσει καὶ τῶν μεγάλων ἐφιεμένῳ ἐμποδὼν γενήσεται.

Does "οὐδὲν γὰρ διαφέρει οὔτε γένους οὔτ’ ἀρετῶν πῶς ἔχει" capture the idiom "be what they may"?

If indeed the greatness were such as courts can bestow, and such as can be laid on the shoulders of a groom, and make him look like the rest of the company, my advice would be misplaced:
καὶ μὴν εἰ περὶ τοιούτου μεγέθους σπουδάζοις οἷον βασιλεὺς ἂν δωροῖτο, ἢ οἷον ἂν καὶ δούλῳ περιβαλλόμενον ἐξισοῖ ἂν αὐτὸν τῷ ἄλλῳ ὁμίλῳ προσορᾶν, οὐκ ἄν εἰς καιρὸν ταῦτα παρῄνουν·

Why σπουδάζοις instead of making "the greatness" the subject as in English?

but since all transcendent, all true and genuine greatness, must be of a man’s own raising, and only on the foundation that the hand of God has laid, do not let any touch it: keep them off civilly, but keep them off.
ἀλλ’ ἐπεὶ τὰ ὡς ἀληθῶς καὶ ἐτύμως ὑπερβάλλοντα μεγέθη οὐκ ἔστιν εἰ μὴ αὐτὸν ἐν ἑαυτῷ τρέφειν, μηδὲ ἐπ’ ἄλλων τινῶν ἢ τῶν ὑπὸ τοῦ θεοῦ τεθειμένων βάθρων, οὐδένα ἄλλον ἐατέον μετασχεῖν τοῦ πράγματος, ἀλλὰ πάντως ἀπαμυντέον, μὴ φορτικῶς ἀλλ’ ὅμως.

μηδὲ ἐπ’ ἄλλων τινῶν ἢ works sounds better than μόνων, but would both work?

Affect no stoicism; display no indifference: let their coin pass current; but do not you exchange for it the purer ore you carry, nor think the milling pays for the alloy.
καὶ μὴ προσποιοῦ αὐτάρκης τις εἶναι μηδὲ ὑπεροπτικός· τὸ ἐκείνων νόμισμα δέχου καὶ μὴ ἀποδοκίμαζε, ἀλλ’ ὅπως μὴ ἀνταλλάξῃ αὐτὸ τοῦ ἀπέφθου χρυσίου ὅ σὺ ἔχεις, μηδὲ τοῦ καλοῦ χαρακτῆρος ἕνεκα τὸ κίβδηλον τιμήσεις.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: M. L. West's Greek Prose Composition

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He has changed the subject here because it would be hard to express "immaturely and ungracefully" directly?
I think there are at least two points here. (1) The English idiom of "advice" or "caution" "coming" from young people just doesn't work in Greek. When you think about it--and English to Greek exercises force you to think about it--the English idiom is rather strange: as if advice or caution are persons engaging in locomotion. To make sense in Greek you have to find a completely different way to express the idea. (2) In order to express the idea in Greek, he's transformed "advice" and "caution" into verbs, with οἱ νεώτεροι as the subject. English uses a lot of abstract nouns where Greek describes a situation in concrete terms. This is a fundamental difference between English and Greek.

"exhibiting a proof either of temerity or suspicion:" same thing: English abstracts transformed into concrete Greek description. He extracts the idea from the English text and then transforms it into a Greek description of the situation.
Does "οὐδὲν γὰρ διαφέρει οὔτε γένους οὔτ’ ἀρετῶν πῶς ἔχει" capture the idiom "be what they may"?
Yes, although you could translate literally word for word, it wouldn't be intelligible in Greek because there's no Greek idiom that corresponds exactly to "be what they may", so he has translated it by a phrase that means, more or less, "it doesn't matter", or more literally, "it doesn't differ", "it doesn't make a difference" as we would say in English.
Why σπουδάζοις instead of making "the greatness" the subject as in English?
Again, an English abstract noun is transformed into a concrete description of a situation in Greek. Sidgwick's Greek Prose Composition, pp. 51ff., secs. 97ff., has a lot of good stuff to say about this. Available for download here on Textkit.
μηδὲ ἐπ’ ἄλλων τινῶν ἢ works sounds better than μόνων, but would both work?
He would have to completely restructure the Greek--he needs to continue with a negative. HIs version is more emphatic.
Can it be inferred that for Martin West Plato epitomised Greek prose?
This is just one sample. He could undoubtedly have done the same for Demosthenes or Thucydides or even Isocrates. And he will have done many of these exercises in the course of his studies. The point of the exercise of translating Greek (or Latin or French or German or any other language) to English for an English speaker is to force you to focus on and become sensitive to how Greek modes of expression differ from English. It can also heighten your sensitivity to the style of a particular author.
Last edited by Hylander on Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: M. L. West's Greek Prose Composition

Post by mwh »

@ailuros. I think it’s a good habit to form expectation of where the author is going. That kind of cognitive processing is what we naturally do in reading. With Greek you can stop at any point (or e.g. at the end of page) and ask yourself what you expect to come next. The trick is to be prepared to adjust or even jettison your expectation as you read further. Easier said than done, I know.

And as you realize, it’s a good habit to takes it as it comes, word by word and phrase by phrase, otherwise you’ll never learn to read. But you don’t have to put understanding of a sentence entirely on hold until you reach the end of it. That’s pretty well impossible, and goes against nature. You form a provisional and evolving understanding of it as you go along. If you’re reading well you can often guess what the last word will be before you reach it, or the thrust of the latter part of a sentence (and a μεν will set up the expectation of an answering δε, for instance), and if you guess wrong, well, you’ve learnt something. And it’s fun when authors pull … what? … surprises.

Crawling is ok, far better than trying to run before you can walk as so many do.


@jeidsath. Now you’re going about it the right way, putting the original English and West’s Greek side by side so that you can compare them and observe how Greek differs from English. You could have tried translating the English yourself first, without reference to West’s version. That would have been a good learning exercise, but in this case perhaps not so valuable. The English is not easy to turn into authentic-seeming Greek; better to learn from West.

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Re: M. L. West's Greek Prose Composition

Post by jeidsath »

I thought about doing it from the English to the Greek (and still could) but I didn't think that my version would be of sufficient quality to illuminate anything about West's choices.

I felt like I learned a fair amount by trying to translate, and being corrected, before checking the English.

I may start another thread from some nineteenth century example of composition, if people found this to be a good discussion.
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Re: M. L. West's Greek Prose Composition

Post by ailuros »

@mwh: thanks much for the advice. i need to improve the jettisoning!

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Re: M. L. West's Greek Prose Composition

Post by Hylander »

One more valuable observation from Sidgwick concerns metaphors (pp. 93-95, secs. 178-180). He writes that English is "exceedingly full of metaphors, much more so than either Greek or Latin." Often metaphors are so deeply engrained in English that it's difficult for English speakers to recognize them--for example, "Advice or caution on this subject comes immaturely and ungracefully from the young, exhibiting a proof either of temerity or suspicion." (Notwithstanding the somewhat fustian language--we might write "exhibiting either temerity or suspicion" with the "exhibit" metaphor.) Exercises in translating English into Greek force you recognize and analyze English metaphors that need to be recast in "more simple and direct statements" in Greek. Even if you don't actually do English to Greek translations, analyzing those done by experts such as West can help you not only see how Greek differs from English in this respect (and others), but also read real Greek more fluently.
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Re: M. L. West's Greek Prose Composition

Post by ailuros »

hi hylander, i'll admit that this sentence would not have struck me as the least metaphorical, but i guess that is sidgwick's point. is the idea that "exhibit" creates the metaphor? that one could reduce the expression to "advice from young" =(is) "temerity and suspicion"? sorry in advance for my density.

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Re: M. L. West's Greek Prose Composition

Post by Hylander »

"Advice or caution comes" Think about it: advice and caution are walking or going somewhere? That wouldn't make sense in Greek prose. Maybe it could in tragedy or lyric, but in those genres striking metaphors are appropriate, if they're perceived as metaphors.

It's the nearly hidden metaphors that are a pervasive part of everyday English speech and writing that have to be ferreted out in translating English into other languages, including Greek. And the exercise has value not only in learning foreign languages, but also in helping us understand better what we say or write in English, and hence in expressing ourselves more clearly and coherently in English.

"The young exhibit" -- they're putting on a display? ("Proof" could be dropped from the expression because it would be somewhat otiose in today's English,but it makes the phrase even more metaphorical.)

These are metaphors but they're so deeply engrained in English that we tend not to notice them as such.

Some form of φαινω or its congeners works for "exhibit". But you still have to work back to a more basic, less metaphorical word than "exhibit", even if you leave out "proof."
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Re: M. L. West's Greek Prose Composition

Post by ailuros »

so, then, our tendency in English to use, say, some form of "go" to indicate speech (e.g., i'm talking to this guy, and he goes..."), is another example? very interesting. I've long noted this tendency, but admit to never thinking about it as metaphor, entrenched or otherwise. in any case, i hope this is close to what you are so patiently trying to explain to me.

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