4.198.3 ἀγαθὴ δὲ γῆ καὶ τὴν Εὐεσπερῖται νέμονται· ἐπ’ ἑκατοστὰ γάρ, ἐπεὰν αὐτὴ ἑωυτῆς ἄριστα ἐνείκῃ, ἐκφέρει, ἡ δὲ ἐν τῆ Κίνυπι ἐπὶ τριηκόσια.
The idiom I've underlined is strange. Is ἐνείκῃ "bear crops" in concrete sense, like ἐκφέρει, or is τὰ ἑαυτοῦ ἄριστα φέρειν an idiom I'm not familiar with? Does this simply mean "when it brings its best"?
I'm done now with the first four books of Herodotus and with Asheri. It's time for something completely different – Sophocles' Ajax.
Herodotus 4.198
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Re: Herodotus 4.198
αριστα ενεικῃ will mean “bears best,” αριστα (without article) superlative adverb. With εωυτης, “when it bears at its (own) best.” What’s idiomatic here is the use of αὐτή along with the reflexive. Literally “when she herself bears at her own best,” but αυτη has very little force, just tags along with εωυτης. (Cf. Smyth 1235.) So just "when it bears at its best" i.e. in its most productive years.
As you leave Herodotus, may I ask what you thought of Asheri’s commentary? I haven't been impressed by what I know of it but that's very little and it seems to be very well thought of.
Yes it’s a shame the Ajax thread died. It makes a change to see Odysseus shown in a good light in tragedy, where he's always very sophistic. You might try the Philoctetes, a wonderful play, for Odysseus at his blackest.
As you leave Herodotus, may I ask what you thought of Asheri’s commentary? I haven't been impressed by what I know of it but that's very little and it seems to be very well thought of.
Yes it’s a shame the Ajax thread died. It makes a change to see Odysseus shown in a good light in tragedy, where he's always very sophistic. You might try the Philoctetes, a wonderful play, for Odysseus at his blackest.
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Re: Herodotus 4.198
I think so. αὐτὴ ἑωυτῆς -- by itself, i.e., without extensive cultivation? I'm not finding support for this, but I wonder whether that's what it means. I wouldn't expect the reflexive if it were simply "whenever [the land] yields its maximum".Does this simply mean "when it brings its best"?
LSJ glosses ἐπ’ ἑκατοστὰ . . . ἐκφέρει as "bear a hundredfold."
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... atosto%2Fs
LSJ φέρω:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... %3Dfe%2FrwV. bring forth, produce, whether of the earth or of trees, “φ. ἄρουρα φάρμακα” Od.4.229; “ἄμπελοι φ. οἶνον” 9.110; [νῆσος] φ. ὥρια πάντα ib.131, cf. Hes.Op.117; [“οὐ] γῆ καρπὸν ἔφερε” Hdt.6.139; “γύαι φ. βίοτον” A.Fr.196.5, cf. Pi.N.11.41, E.Hec.593, etc.: abs., bear fruit, be fruitful, “εὖτ᾽ ἂν τάδε πάντα φέρῃσι” h.Merc.91; ἡ γῆ ἔφερε (καρπόν add. codd. quidam) Hdt.5.82; “αἱ ἄμπελοι φέρουσιν” X.Oec.20.4; also of living beings, “τόπος ἄνδρας φ.” Pl.Ti.24c; “ἤνεγκεν αὐτὸν Λαοδίκεια” Philostr. VS1.25.1; “ἡ ἐνεγκοῦσα” one's country, Hld.2.29, Lib.Or. 2.66, al., Chor.p.81 B., Lyd.Mag.3.26, dub. in Supp.Epigr.4.439 (Milet.) without Art. (also “ἡ ἐνεγκαμένη” Jul.Ep.202); or Mother Earth, M.Ant.4.48: generally, create, form, “Πηνειὸς Τέμπη φ.” Philostr.Im.1.25; [“τὰ βρέφη] ἄρχεται φέρειν τοὺς ὀδόντας” Aët.4.9; “φ. τοὺς κυνόδοντας” Gp.16.1.14.
Edit: I cross-posted with mwh.
Bill Walderman
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Re: Herodotus 4.198
I finished Ajax a while back but have been ignoring Oedipus Rex, currently stalled at line 122x. I could haul out my notes on Ajax and follow along. I used Stanford for Ajax, Finglass was hard to hold on to since it is a ILL book. Three weeks to get it and you keep it three weeks and Stanford was more my speed. The commentaries don't help me much since my only background in Classics is about 120 hours of lectures by Elizabeth Vandiver. Very fine lectures.Paul Derouda wrote:It's time for something completely different – Sophocles' Ajax.
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Re: Herodotus 4.198
I read through from the beginning to the middle of book 2 before I had enough of the hippopotami and customs of the Egyptians. I decided I ought to be reading Sophocles instead, Ajax, Philoctetes and Electra, the ones I didn't read in college, and then Medea, which I read in high school. Maybe I'll go back to Herodotus, but right now I"m reading Plato.
I found Asheri a little thin in places where I would have been interested in more discussion, particularly more focus on factual, as opposed to intellectual, history. He's more interested in opinions than facts, i.e., he really doesn't care much about wie es eigentlich gewesen, which he considers unknowable, and focuses his attention on Herodotus' ideas and misinformation. He regards all historical narrative in Herodotus as suspect from a factual point of view, so he doesn't dwell on it.
Asheri provides no help with grammar and syntax, but Herodotus doesn''t need much.
I found Asheri a little thin in places where I would have been interested in more discussion, particularly more focus on factual, as opposed to intellectual, history. He's more interested in opinions than facts, i.e., he really doesn't care much about wie es eigentlich gewesen, which he considers unknowable, and focuses his attention on Herodotus' ideas and misinformation. He regards all historical narrative in Herodotus as suspect from a factual point of view, so he doesn't dwell on it.
Asheri provides no help with grammar and syntax, but Herodotus doesn''t need much.
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Re: Herodotus 4.198
Thanks.
I don't really know what to think about Asheri. It's true that I found myself often just quickly skimming through long sections of the commentary. Also, different parts of the commentary were written by different writers; I found the one on book four the least engaging. But I hesitate to pass judgment, because it might be simply that I'm generally less interested about Scythians than about Egyptians. The commentary on book two was perhaps most to my liking. Generally speaking I might not be a very good judge, as the commentary treated many aspects of history and geography I'm not at all familiar with.
I think I agree to a point with Hylander here about wie es eigentlich gewesen, although on occasions I could say the exact opposite, for example the breast tumor case I brought up where Asheri took for granted Herodotus was acquainted with intimate details of the Persian queen's medical history.
I'm not leaving Herodotus for good; I do intend to continue later. That'll allow me to compare Asheri to Green and Yellows. All in all, I learnt a lot from Asheri; but whether it could or should have been even better I leave to someone better informed.
I don't really know what to think about Asheri. It's true that I found myself often just quickly skimming through long sections of the commentary. Also, different parts of the commentary were written by different writers; I found the one on book four the least engaging. But I hesitate to pass judgment, because it might be simply that I'm generally less interested about Scythians than about Egyptians. The commentary on book two was perhaps most to my liking. Generally speaking I might not be a very good judge, as the commentary treated many aspects of history and geography I'm not at all familiar with.
I think I agree to a point with Hylander here about wie es eigentlich gewesen, although on occasions I could say the exact opposite, for example the breast tumor case I brought up where Asheri took for granted Herodotus was acquainted with intimate details of the Persian queen's medical history.
I'm not leaving Herodotus for good; I do intend to continue later. That'll allow me to compare Asheri to Green and Yellows. All in all, I learnt a lot from Asheri; but whether it could or should have been even better I leave to someone better informed.
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Re: Herodotus 4.198
I recently bought Finglass and would be interested in joining a discussion on Ajax. I think I used Jebb when I first read this play so it will be fun to compare notes.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.