Euthyphro 4e4

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jeidsath
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Euthyphro 4e4

Post by jeidsath »

σὺ δὲ δὴ πρὸς Διός, ὦ Εὐθύφρων, οὑτωσὶ ἀκριβῶς οἴει ἐπίστασθαι περὶ τῶν θείων ὅπῃ ἔχει, καὶ τῶν ὁσίων τε καὶ ἀνοσίων, ὥστε τούτων οὕτω πραχθέντων ὡς σὺ λέγεις, οὐ φοβῇ δικαζόμενος τῷ πατρὶ ὅπως μὴ αὖ σὺ ἀνόσιον πρᾶγμα τυγχάνῃς πράττων;
"But do you, indeed by God, Eythyphro, in this way think that you accurately know about heavenly things, what manner they are, and about the sacred and profane, that these being practiced like you say, you do not fear that prosecuting your father you yourself should also be following a profane course?"

πραχθέντων was a surprising verb to me there. I generally think of something sacred, an object, and the concept only by extension applying to sacred and impure actions. But for the Greeks it seems that the concept is primarily about actions?
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: Euthyphro 4e4

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ἀπόλλυται
Last edited by MarkAntony198337 on Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Euthyphro 4e4

Post by Hylander »

I'd suggest reading the LSJ entry for ὅσιος. This word has a range of meanings that don't correspond exactly to the range of meanings of the English words "holy" or "sacred." In particular, ὅσιος in one of its meanings is opposed to δίκαιος: ὅσιος is something that's consistent with divine law, while δίκαιος is something that's consistent with human law. Don't be misled by the translation "holy" or "sacred." As I think you know quite well, to understand a Greek word (or an English word, for that matter), you have to look at how it's used in a range of contexts. Translations, while convenient sometimes, can be misleading, too.
The sense of ὅσιος often depends on its relation on the one hand to δίκαιος (sanctioned by human law), on the other to ἱερός (sacred to the gods):

1. opp. δίκαιος, sanctioned by divine law, hallowed, holy (“μόριον τοῦ δικαίου τὸ ὅ.” Pl.Euthphr.12d), “δικαιότερον καὶ ὁσιώτερον καὶ πρὸς θεῶν καὶ πρὸς ἀνθρώπων” Antipho 1.25 ; “τὰ πρὸς τοὺς ἀνθρώπους δίκαια καὶ τὰ πρὸς τοὺς θεοὺς ὅ.” Plb.22.10.8 : hence, in a common antithesis, τὰ δίκαια καὶ ὅ. things of human and divine ordinance, Pl. Plt.301d, etc., cf. Euthphr.6e ; also “ὅ. καὶ νόμιμα” Ar.Th.676(lyr.); “οὐ . . νόμιμον οὐδ᾽ ὅ. ἂν εἴη” Pl.Lg.861d; θεοὺς ὅσιόν τι δρᾶν discharge a duty men owe the gods, E.Supp.40, cf. Hipp.1081 ; τὸ ὅσιον, = εὐσέβεια, Pl.Euthphr.5d: in an imprecatory formula, “ἀποδοῦσι μὲν αὐτοῖς ὅσια ᾖ, μὴ ἀποδοῦσι δὲ ἀνόσια” SIG1199 (Cnidus), cf. “ἀνοσία” 11 ; so ὅ. καὶ ἐλεύθερα ib.1180.6 (ibid.).
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... Do(%2Fsios
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Re: Euthyphro 4e4

Post by jeidsath »

Well, I've read through Euthyphro before, so I probably should have known better. As I try to think of English terms for ὅσιος, I see better where Euthyphro is coming from with some of his definitions. "What the gods love is ὅσιος, etc."

One thing that jumped out at me from the LSJ article was the usage in II.2, "opp. ἱερός, permitted or not forbidden by divine law, profane, ἱερὰ καὶ ὅ. things sacred and profane." I don't believe that there is any point in Eythyphro that uses this meaning. "τῶν ἱερῶν μὲν χρημάτων τοὺς θεούς, τῶν ὁσίων δὲ τὴν πόλιν ἀποστερεῖ" D.24.9. From the sacred monies he robs the gods, from the profane he robs the city.

My gloss in the first post "sacred and profane," I would probably change now to somehow reflect that these are divinely sanctioned acts, and acts that are not so.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: Euthyphro 4e4

Post by Hylander »

I should have added that the whole point of Euthyphro is that when the Greeks used the word οσιος, they had no idea what they were talking about.

But whatever they thought they meant, it was a moral or ethical term that they applied to actions, not to physical objects or people (at least not in the period when Plato was writing). "Holy" is an inadequate and misleading translation.
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Re: Euthyphro 4e4

Post by seneca2008 »

I agree that "Holy" is an inadequate and misleading translation. Along with "sin" it has no place in ancient Greek thought.

I am not so sure about ὅσιος as an attribute of people, although I hesitate to disagree with you. Plato and his contemporaries would have been familiar with its application to people in tragedy. L&S gives the meaning as "pious, devout, religious" as applying to persons. For example in Medea 846-50

πῶς οὖν ἱερῶν ποταμῶν
ἢ πόλις ἢ θεῶν
πόμπιμός σε χώρα
τὰν παιδολέτειραν ἕ-
ξει, τὰν οὐχ ὁσίαν, μετ᾽ ἀστῶν;

Arguably this "unholiness" arises from a specific action, the murder of her children, but as I read this it is an attribute of Medea not of her action.

The Brill dictionary mentions Xen. Anab. 2.6.25

καὶ ὅσους μὲν αἰσθάνοιτο ἐπιόρκους καὶ ἀδίκους ὡς εὖ ὡπλισμένους ἐφοβεῖτο, τοῖς δὲ ὁσίοις καὶ ἀλήθειαν ἀσκοῦσιν ὡς ἀνάνδροις ἐπειρᾶτο χρῆσθαι.

"... persons who respect oaths and the truth."

I know the Brill dictionary is not popular here but I think its entry on ὅσιος tries its best to use vocabulary free from later Christianising overtones.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: Euthyphro 4e4

Post by Hylander »

Maybe you're right. But these words don't mean "holy/unholy"--they refer very specifically to the way people act. Their οσιοτης or ανοσιοτης is a property of their actions that is transferred to the people themselves. I don't think you'll find an example where οσιος or its opposite are used to refer to an innate property of a person, independent of actions (in contrast to "holy"), and still less where the words are applied to a thing.
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Re: Euthyphro 4e4

Post by jeidsath »

The gloss "persons who respect oaths and the truth" would make a lot more sense if Xenophon had left out "καὶ ἀδίκους," and had put "τοῖς δὲ ὁσίοις καὶ ἀλήθειαν ἀσκοῦσιν" opposite only "ἐπιόρκους." Being a 100 years behind mwh, I haven't been able to judge any of the Brill infelicities that he has pointed out in other threads. But this gloss I have to say that I really don't like.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: Euthyphro 4e4

Post by seneca2008 »

But these words don't mean "holy/unholy"--they refer very specifically to the way people act.
Thats certainly true.

Joel, I dont think I understand the point you are making.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: Euthyphro 4e4

Post by jeidsath »

If Xenophon had said:

καὶ ὅσους μὲν αἰσθάνοιτο ἐπιόρκους ὡς εὖ ὡπλισμένους ἐφοβεῖτο, τοῖς δὲ ὁσίοις καὶ ἀλήθειαν ἀσκοῦσιν ὡς ἀνάνδροις ἐπειρᾶτο χρῆσθαι.

Then the ὁσίοις and the ἀλήθειαν ἀσκοῦσιν (practicers of truth) would be opposite ἐπιόρκους (oathbreakers). ὁσίοις would clearly mean something like regarders of oaths. But he said:

καὶ ὅσους μὲν αἰσθάνοιτο ἐπιόρκους καὶ ἀδίκους ὡς εὖ ὡπλισμένους ἐφοβεῖτο, τοῖς δὲ ὁσίοις καὶ ἀλήθειαν ἀσκοῦσιν ὡς ἀνάνδροις ἐπειρᾶτο χρῆσθαι.

Meno respects oathbreakers and wrongdoers, but sees the others as less than men and to be used. If we are going to look for a definition from the opposition here, we should take ἀδίκους into account.

EDIT: I see where this is coming from now. Brill tried to expand on the LSJ's entry for ὅσιος which has "opp. ἐπίορκος, X.An.2.6.25." The LSJ is certainly right on this. It is opposite ἐπίορκος (but also ἄδικος). However, Brill tries to expand the LSJ's short note into an actual gloss without taking a hard enough look at the original.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: Euthyphro 4e4

Post by seneca2008 »

I see. The way I read it is that the ὁσίοι in the second clause are the opposite of the ἀδίκοι in the first, that is they respect oaths and tell the truth. Wouldnt it have been a bit pedestrian (even) for Xenophon to have spelt it out?

I take what you say but most of these terms are to a certain extent cognate. The reason that they are ἀδίκοι is that they dont respect oaths, those that dont respect oaths dont tell the truth etc.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: Euthyphro 4e4

Post by jeidsath »

The reason that they are ἀδίκοι is that they dont respect oaths dont tell the truth etc.
The text doesn't say that, as far as I'm aware. The sentence before is discussing stealing from friends (not particularly about these ἀδίκοι though). And there is nothing in this sentence to make it look like it's particularly oaths that Meno is concerned with.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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