Help with active present participle

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godingly
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Help with active present participle

Post by godingly »

Hello,
I have several questions regarding the translation of the following sentences:

First sentence

Λυκοῦργος πρὸς τὸν κελεύοντα δημοκρατίαν ἐν τῇ Λακεδαίμονι ποιῆσαι, "σὺ πρῶτος," ἔφη, "ἐν τῇ σῇ οἰκίᾳ ποίησον δημοκρατίαν"

What I got is "Lycurgus, about the κελεύοντα . democracy into Lycadaemon ποιῆσαι... said:"...

1) κελεύοντα is a (masc/neut) part. acc. that means it should fit with something masc acc. or with something neuter nom/acc/voc. How does κελεύοντα fits in the sentence?
2) ποιῆσαι - I'm pretty sure it isn't the 2nd sg aor imperat mid, so it must be the aor inf act. However, I simply can't get it inside the sentence. is there a verb I'm missing?
3) ποίησον - this is the fut participle, yet it fits nothing in gender and grammatical case. What is he saying? What is ποίησον role?

Second sentence

Μέμνων ὁ Ῥόδιος Ἀλεξάνδρῳ ὑπὲρ Δαρείου μαχόμενος, μισθοφόρου τινὸς ἀκούσας κακὰ τὸν Ἀλέξανδρον λέγοντος, "ἐγώ σε," ἔφη, "τρέφω πολεμήσοντα Ἀλεξάνδρῳ ἀλλα οὐ λοιδορήσοντα αὐτόν."

What I got is: Memnon of Rhodes, whilst fighting Alexander for Darius, ......

4) Again - I recognize the original verb of the participles, and their grammatical case, yet I can't fit them in a sentence. Any advice what should I do?

Thanks!
Last edited by godingly on Wed Jan 13, 2016 6:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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bedwere
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Re: Help with active present participle

Post by bedwere »

τῇ not θῇ
σὺ not σύ

1) What is Lycurgus doing πρὸς τὸν κελεύοντα? Lycurgus is addressing this person who (like many today, :wink:) is urging to [fill the blanks] democracy.
2) Yes, it is aorist infinitive active. What does that person want?
3) It's aorist imperative active.

4) What case does ἀκούω take for the person being heard?

polemistes
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Re: Help with active present participle

Post by polemistes »

I think I understand these sentences, so I'll try to help.
1) κελεύοντα is a (masc/neut) part. acc. that means it should fit with something masc acc. or with something neuter nom/acc/voc. How does κελεύοντα fits in the sentence?
Here's a hint. It is masc. acc. sg. and has an article in front of it, so it is made into a noun. κελεύω takes an infinitive, which would answer the second question. Then the infinitive ποιῆσαι must have an object in accusative, and there is only one word left for that.
3) ποίησον - this is the fut participle, yet it fits nothing in gender and grammatical case. What is he saying? What is ποίησον role?
It is not the future participle here. It is aorist imperative active. That should make it more intelligible.

The second sentence is in a way simpler, but has more of the participles to figure out. First, ἀκούω takes a genitive object when it is a person heard and the genitive participles goes together with this person. Inside the direct speech, the accusative participles go with σε, and have a telic (in order to) meaning.

godingly
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Re: Help with active present participle

Post by godingly »

So the first sentence goes "Lycargus said about he that orders to do a democracy: 'you make democracy in your own house first!'"

And for the second one "Memnon of Rhodes, whilst fighting Alexander for Darius, when he heard some mercenary talking bad of Alexander, said 'I pay you to fight alexander, not to mock him'".

I have two more questions:
1) How to translate πολεμήσοντα / λοιδορήσοντα? is it with the infinitive, i.e. "to fight, to mock", or is there a better way?
2)how to translate ἀλλα οὐ - is it "but not" or can I drop the "but"?
Thanks

polemistes
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Re: Help with active present participle

Post by polemistes »

In the first sentence you skipped a part, ἐν τῇ Λακεδαίμονι. And I would translate πρός + acc. as "to" here. I also think Λυκοῦργος should be understood as the one being ordered.

1) Your translation is good here, I think. You could also write "in order to", but this is also expressed by "to".

2) The sense in English is quite the same with or without the "but", so if you are not for some reason wanting to show the Greek construction in your translation, it works fine without the "but".

John W.
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Re: Help with active present participle

Post by John W. »

Λυκοῦργος πρὸς τὸν κελεύοντα δημοκρατίαν ἐν τῇ Λακεδαίμονι ποιῆσαι, "σὺ πρῶτος," ἔφη, "ἐν τῇ σῇ οἰκίᾳ ποίησον δημοκρατίαν."

τὸν κελεύοντα means here 'the person urging [him to]' (κελεύω is often better translated as 'to urge' rather than 'to order').

I'm no expert, but the sense seems to me to be:

'To the person urging him to introduce democracy in Lacedaemon, Lycurgus said: "You introduce democracy in your own house first".'

In other words, Lycurgus is rhetorically challenging his interlocutor by saying: 'If you're so keen on democracy, run your own house on that basis first, and only then come to me asking me to turn Lacedaemon into a democracy!'

In your translation of the second passage, I think you're right to drop the 'but' - the Greek idiom often has ἀλλα, but in English it's more idiomatic in such a context not to have 'but'.

I hope this (a) is right, and (b) helps.

John

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