εἰς ὃ καλῶς που ἔχει ἀποβλέψαντα τὸν ἀποκρινόμενον τῷ ἐρωτήσ

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AlexEmp
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εἰς ὃ καλῶς που ἔχει ἀποβλέψαντα τὸν ἀποκρινόμενον τῷ ἐρωτήσ

Post by AlexEmp »

This is from Meno 72c. The full sentence is:
οὕτω δὴ καὶ περὶ τῶν ἀρετῶν: κἂν εἰ πολλαὶ καὶ παντοδαπαί εἰσιν, ἕν γέ τι εἶδος ταὐτὸν ἅπασαι ἔχουσιν δι᾽ ὃ εἰσὶν ἀρεταί, εἰς ὃ καλῶς που ἔχει ἀποβλέψαντα τὸν ἀποκρινόμενον τῷ ἐρωτήσαντι ἐκεῖνο δηλῶσαι, ὃ τυγχάνει οὖσα ἀρετή: ἢ οὐ μανθάνεις ὅτι λέγω;


Now I understand the meaning of the sentence (after having checked a translation), but I'm still unclear about how [καλῶς ἔχει ἀποβλέψαντα τὸν ἀποκρινόμενον] and [ἐκεῖνο δηλῶσαι]. I'm working through Learning Greek with Plato (Beetham)

Thanks in advance for any help!

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Re: εἰς ὃ καλῶς που ἔχει ἀποβλέψαντα τὸν ἀποκρινόμενον τῷ ἐρ

Post by Qimmik »

κἂν εἰ πολλαὶ καὶ παντοδαπαί εἰσιν, ἕν γέ τι εἶδος ταὐτὸν ἅπασαι ἔχουσιν δι᾽ ὃ εἰσὶν ἀρεταί,

"even if they are many and various, they nevertheless all have one and the same eidos on account of which they are aretai,

εἰς ὃ καλῶς που ἔχει ἀποβλέψαντα τὸν ἀποκρινόμενον τῷ ἐρωτήσαντι ἐκεῖνο δηλῶσαι, ὃ τυγχάνει οὖσα ἀρετή

"after having looked at which (the eidos of arete), it might be appropriate [καλῶς που ἔχει] for anyone responding to someone who has asked (i.e., someone who has asked the question "what is arete?") to show [εἰς ὃ ἀποβλέψαντα . . . ἐκεῖνο δηλῶσαι] what arete is [ὃ τυγχάνει οὖσα ἀρετή]."

In other words, it is appropriate for someone responding to the question "what is arete?" to consider the eidos of arete and then demonstrate to the person asking the question what arete is.

Does crude translation this help at all?

κἂν εἰ = "even if"

LSJ κἄν:
freq. in the phrase κ. εἰ, where καί properly belongs to εἰ, even if, and ἄν to the Verb that follows in apodosi, νῦν δέ μοι δοκεῖ, κ. ἀσέβειαν εἰ καταγιγνώσκοι, τὰ προσήκοντα ποιεῖν (for καὶ εἰ καταγιγνώσκοι, ποιεῖν ἄν) D.21.51: hence,
2. even when the Verb in apodosi was of a tense that could not be joined with ἄν, κ. εἰ πολλαὶ [αἱ ἀρεταί] . . “εἰσιν, ἕν γέ τι εἶδος ταὐτὸν ἅπασαι ἔχουσι” Pl.Men. 72c;
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... Dka%29%2Fn
Last edited by Qimmik on Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: εἰς ὃ καλῶς που ἔχει ἀποβλέψαντα τὸν ἀποκρινόμενον τῷ ἐρ

Post by Qimmik »

The difficulty here, I think, is that the relative εἰς ὃ is a prepositional phrase dependent on the participle ἀποβλέψαντα, which in turn depends on the subject, τὸν ἀποκρινόμενον, of a dependent clause, δηλῶσαι, of what turns out to be the main verb of the relative clause, καλῶς που ἔχει. This works in Greek but not so well in English.

As frequently in Greek, καλῶς που ἔχει ἀποβλέψαντα . . . δηλῶσαι is probably best translated as "it is appropriate to consider and show," rather than "it is appropriate, having considered, to show".

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Re: εἰς ὃ καλῶς που ἔχει ἀποβλέψαντα τὸν ἀποκρινόμενον τῷ ἐρ

Post by jeidsath »

The mysteries of Greek word order continue to remain opaque to me, but I don't like the given punctuation.
οὕτω δὴ καὶ περὶ τῶν ἀρετῶν κἂν εἰ πολλαὶ καὶ παντοδαπαί εἰσιν ἕν γέ τι εἶδος ταὐτὸν ἅπασαι ἔχουσιν δι᾽ ὃ εἰσὶν ἀρεταί εἰς ὃ καλῶς που ἔχει ἀποβλέψαντα τὸν ἀποκρινόμενον τῷ ἐρωτήσαντι ἐκεῖνο δηλῶσαι ὃ τυγχάνει οὖσα ἀρετή ἢ οὐ μανθάνεις ὅτι λέγω
"It's like this about the virtues. If they are many and of various kinds, at least there is one image that they all have, and because of it are virtues. The one who has this well is staring at his answer to the questioning. That is plainly what virtue happens to be. Or don't you grok what I'm saying?"

I don't like how I'm understanding ἀποβλέψαντα in the above. It's the accusative direct object that is doing it, not the nominative subject, like I've translated. Hmm.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: εἰς ὃ καλῶς που ἔχει ἀποβλέψαντα τὸν ἀποκρινόμενον τῷ ἐρ

Post by jeidsath »

I almost want to say instead, εἰς ὃ καλῶς που ἔχει ἀποβλέψαντα τὸν ἀποκρινόμενον τῷ ἐρωτήσαντι is "it [εἶδος] well has what the answerer to questioner had focussed on."

But Qimmik's "having considered" makes it all clear to me now...
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: εἰς ὃ καλῶς που ἔχει ἀποβλέψαντα τὸν ἀποκρινόμενον τῷ ἐρ

Post by Qimmik »

εἰς ὃ . . . ἀποβλέψαντα modifies τὸν ἀποκρινόμενον, which is the accusative subject of the infinitive subject of δηλῶσαι.

καλῶς που ἔχει is impersonal: "it is well to". Its complement here is τὸν ἀποκρινόμενον . . . δηλῶσαι.

LSJ καλός:
II. regul. Adv. καλῶς . . . , well, rightly . . . κ. ἔχει c. inf., 'tis well to . . , X.Mem.3.11.1:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... Dkalo%2Fs2

Remember, ἔχω + adverb = "to be" + adjective.

LSJ ἔχω:
II. simply, be, . . . freq. with Advbs. of manner, “εὖ ἔχει” Od.24.245, etc.; καλῶς ἔχει, κακῶς ἔχει
LSJ gives as one meaning for ἀποβλέπω "to pay attention to". That's what it means here, not "to stare at."

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... poble%2Fpw

που here means something like "perhaps", or "might", "it might be a good idea for . . ."

LSJ που:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... try%3Dpou2
Last edited by Qimmik on Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: εἰς ὃ καλῶς που ἔχει ἀποβλέψαντα τὸν ἀποκρινόμενον τῷ ἐρ

Post by Qimmik »

Converting this from a relative clause to an independent sentence, we would have:

εἰς τὸ εἶδος τῶν ἀρετῶν καλῶς που ἔχει ἀποβλέψαντα τὸν ἀποκρινόμενον τῷ ἐρωτήσαντι ἐκεῖνο δηλῶσαι, ὃ τυγχάνει οὖσα ἀρετή:

The structure would be: "It is well for anyone responding to someone who asks the question, having considered/paid attention to the eidos of the aretai, to show him what arete is."

A better English translation would be "It is well for anyone responding to someone who asks the question to consider the eidos of the aretai and then show him what arete is."

Hope this helps!

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Re: εἰς ὃ καλῶς που ἔχει ἀποβλέψαντα τὸν ἀποκρινόμενον τῷ ἐρ

Post by Qimmik »

εἰς ὃ καλῶς που ἔχει ἀποβλέψαντα τὸν ἀποκρινόμενον τῷ ἐρωτήσαντι ἐκεῖνο δηλῶσαι, ὃ τυγχάνει οὖσα ἀρετή

The relative εἰς ὃ has to come first in this clause to link it to the main clause.

ἀποβλέψαντα . . . δηλῶσαι is a single unit that is the complement of are both conceived of καλῶς που ἔχει. Even though grammatically ἀποβλέψαντα is subordinate to the accusative subject of δηλῶσαι, the point is not that the answer-man should explain what arete is, but that he should first consider the eidos of arete, and only then proceed to the explanation. In fact, the "should" really applies more to considering the eidos than to the explanation. He should consider the eidos of arete before answering the question.

So καλῶς που ἔχει, the main verbal idea of the clause, precedes the entire phrase ἀποβλέψαντα . . . δηλῶσαι, separating εἰς ὃ from ἀποβλέψαντα. I think that, and the fact that the relative phrase εἰς ὃ depends not on the prinicipal verbal idea of the relative clause, καλῶς που ἔχει, but rather on a subordinate constituent embedded in it, ἀποβλέψαντα, are the principal difficulties in understanding the structure, and hence the meaning, of this clause.
Last edited by Qimmik on Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: εἰς ὃ καλῶς που ἔχει ἀποβλέψαντα τὸν ἀποκρινόμενον τῷ ἐρ

Post by jeidsath »

εἰς ὃ . . . ἀποβλέψαντα modifies τὸν ἀποκρινόμενον, which is the accusative subject of the infinitive subject of δηλῶσαι.
Thank you, things make a lot more sense when I think about it that way. I will give up trying to shove δηλῶσαι into the next clause.

"It's like this about the virtues. If they are many and of various kinds, at least there is one image that they all have, and because of it are virtues. It is well at least in answering the person questioning to focus on that manifest thing. It is what virtue happens to be. Or aren't you catching what I'm saying?"
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: εἰς ὃ καλῶς που ἔχει ἀποβλέψαντα τὸν ἀποκρινόμενον τῷ ἐρ

Post by mwh »

“It’s just the same with aretai. Even though there are many different kinds, there’s one eidos that all of them have—they all have the same one—, and it’s on account of this eidos that they’re aretai. Anyone answering a questioner will do well to focus on this eidos when showing just what arete actually is.”

(More literally “… to show just what arete actually is by focussing on this eidos”;
more literally still “… having focussed on this eidos to show that which arete actually is”.
I think you may still be misunderstanding εκεινο δηλωσαι. There's no "that manifest thing.")

—Or don’t you grok what I mean? (Thanks for that grok, jeidsath!)

btw always remember that “I’m fine” is καλῶς ἔχω. καλος ειμι means “I'm gorgeous.”

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