Textkit Logo

κατασοφιστεύω vs. κατασοφίζομαι in Comenius

Here's where you can discuss all things Ancient Greek. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get translation help and more!

κατασοφιστεύω vs. κατασοφίζομαι in Comenius

Postby Phil- » Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:28 am

Hello,

I have a question about a passage in a Latin-Greek edition of the Janua Linguarum by Comenius. (See this thread if you'd like it in proofreading-in-progress transcribed form. Many thanks to bedwere for his ongoing proofreading of the Greek.)

918. Φιλιωθείς τινι ἀκάκως, ἀπλάστως, ἀδόλως αὐτῷ συμβίου· τίς γὰρ δόξα φίλον καὶ εὔνουν ἄνδρα κατασοφιστεῖν;

In the original Latin:
918. Cum quo necessitudo (familiaritas) tibi est, erga illum apertus sis sine fraude (techna) doloque (fallacia). Amicum enim fautoremque fraudare et fallere, quae gloria?

An English translation of the Latin:
918. Towards whom you are familiar with, be open, without fraud or guile. For what glory is there in beguiling (deceiving, betraying, dealing fraudulently with) a friend?

κατασοφιστέω seems not to be a real verb. We found two possiblities: either κατασοφιστεύειν or κατασοφίζεσθαι. The LSJ entry for κατασοφιστεύω says merely "=κατασοφίζομαι". Is there really no difference between these, or should one be used over the other in this context? Thanks.
Phil-
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 12:44 am
Location: USA

Re: κατασοφιστεύω vs. κατασοφίζομαι in Comenius

Postby Victor » Sun Aug 31, 2014 1:47 am

Phil- wrote:Hello,

I have a question about a passage in a Latin-Greek edition of the Janua Linguarum by Comenius. (See this thread if you'd like it in proofreading-in-progress transcribed form. Many thanks to bedwere for his ongoing proofreading of the Greek.)

918. Φιλιωθείς τινι ἀκάκως, ἀπλάστως, ἀδόλως αὐτῷ συμβίου· τίς γὰρ δόξα φίλον καὶ εὔνουν ἄνδρα κατασοφιστεῖν;

In the original Latin:
918. Cum quo necessitudo (familiaritas) tibi est, erga illum apertus sis sine fraude (techna) doloque (fallacia). Amicum enim fautoremque fraudare et fallere, quae gloria?

An English translation of the Latin:
918. Towards whom you are familiar with, be open, without fraud or guile. For what glory is there in beguiling (deceiving, betraying, dealing fraudulently with) a friend?

κατασοφιστέω seems not to be a real verb. We found two possiblities: either κατασοφιστεύειν or κατασοφίζεσθαι. The LSJ entry for κατασοφιστεύω says merely "=κατασοφίζομαι". Is there really no difference between these, or should one be used over the other in this context? Thanks.

I'm not really sure what your question is. Are you asking whether κατασοφιστέω is in fact attested in the extant literature, or whether there is any difference in meaning between κατασοφιστεύω and κατασοφίζομαι? An answer to the first question is, I'm sure, obtainable; a categorical answer to the second is probably not.
Victor
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 117
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:19 am

Re: κατασοφιστεύω vs. κατασοφίζομαι in Comenius

Postby Qimmik » Sun Aug 31, 2014 2:09 am

From LSJ it appears that the only attested occurrence of κατασοφιστεύω is in the Suda, an 10th century Byzantine dictionary/encyclopedia, which was compiled on the basis of a large number of ancient works, not all of which have survived.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suda

According to LSJ, the Suda entry for κατασοφιστεύω is limited to noting that it's a synonym for κατασοφίζομαι, without sourcing it in a specific ancient author. In other words, it's possible that κατασοφιστεύω was used in a classical Greek text, but Suda doesn't tell us where it came from, and it apparently doesn't occur in any surviving classical Greek text. So it would probably be preferable to use κατασοφίζεσθαι, which has some genuine ancient attestations (including the Septuagint and Lucian), and apparently isn't different in meaning.

I checked the revised LSJ supplement just to make sure there was nothing new on these verbs.
Qimmik
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1467
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:15 pm

Re: κατασοφιστεύω vs. κατασοφίζομαι in Comenius

Postby Phil- » Sun Aug 31, 2014 1:50 pm

Victor wrote:An answer to the first question is, I'm sure, obtainable; a categorical answer to the second is probably not.

I suspected not, but wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything. I'll look into sources more closely next time.

Qimmik wrote:So it would probably be preferable to use κατασοφίζεσθαι, which has some genuine ancient attestations (including the Septuagint and Lucian), and apparently isn't different in meaning.=


Thanks! That makes sense. I don't know why I didn't pay attention to those in the first place. Next time I'll do the work myself and not be lazy. :)
Phil-
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 12:44 am
Location: USA

Re: κατασοφιστεύω vs. κατασοφίζομαι in Comenius

Postby bedwere » Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:56 am

I have the impression that for (not only) ancient Greeks it was a national sport to invent words. If your public can understand a new word, and it doesn't violate any grammatical rule, you should go for it. The more the better!
User avatar
bedwere
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 515
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: Didacopoli in California

Re: κατασοφιστεύω vs. κατασοφίζομαι in Comenius

Postby Phil- » Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:23 am

bedwere wrote:I have the impression that for (not only) ancient Greeks it was a national sport to invent words. If your public can understand a new word, and it doesn't violate any grammatical rule, you should go for it. The more the better!

If only they knew how many arguments they were creating far in the future... They'd have a good laugh, if they could see our nitpicking.
Phil-
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 12:44 am
Location: USA


Return to Learning Greek

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: C. S. Bartholomew and 35 guests