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Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

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Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby klewlis » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:54 am

4a is to photocopy the blank verb charts and fill them in.

4b
Give the genitive of the following:
1. ἡ Μυρρίνη
2. ἡ Μέλιττα
3. ἡ καλὴ ὑδρίᾱ
4. ἡ καλὴ ἑορτή
5. ἡ καλὴ κρήνη
6. ὁ μακρὸς πόνος
7. ἡ καλὴ μέλιττα
8. τὸ καλὸν δένδρον

4c
Supply the correct form of the definite article:
1. ____ καλαὶ γυναῖκες
2. ἐν ____ ἀγρῳ (I can't figure out how to get both the subscript and the circumflex...help?)
3. πρὸς ____ κρήνῃ
4. ____ ἄλλων ἀνδρῶν
5. ἐκ ____ γῆς
6. ἐν ____ ὑδρίαις
7. ____ μεγάλα δένδρα
8. ____ ἄγγελοι

4d
Put into the plural and translate:
1. ἡ κόρη ἄγει τὴν φ΄λην ἐκ τοῦ ἀγροῦ.
2. ἡ δούλη τὴν ὑδρίᾱν φέρει πρὸς τὴν κρήνην.
3. καλή ἐστιν ἡ κόρη: ἆρ' οὐκ ἐθέλεις αὐτὴν καλεῖν;
4. χαῖρε, ὦ κόρη: ἆρα βαδίζεις πρὸς τὴν οἰκίᾶν;
5. ἐν νῳ ἔχω λείπειν τὴν ὑδρίᾱν ἐν τῃ οἰκίᾳ καὶ σθλλαμβάνειν.

4e
Put into the singular and translate:
1. αἱ φίλαι μένοθσι πρὸς ταῖς κρήναις.
2. οἱ ἄνθρωποι φέρουσι τὰ ἄροτρα ἐκ τῶν ἀγρῶν.
3. ἀκούετε, ὦ φίλοι : ἐν νῳ ἔχομεν βαδίζειν πρὸς τὰς οἰκίᾱς.
4. τί ποιεῖτε, ὦ δοῦλοι; μὴ οὕτω σκαιοὶ ἔστε.


Translate into Greek:
1. Dicaeopolis approaches Myrrhine and says, "Greetings, dear wife (γύναι). What are you doing?"
2. "I am hurrying to the spring. For I wish to carry water (τὸ ὔδωρ) to the house. But what are you doing?"
3. "The slave and I are hurrying to the field. But listen." (Reverse the polite order of the subjects in the English and put the 1st person pronoun first in the Greek.)
4. "The Athenians are celebrating a festival. Do you wish to see it?"
5. "I very much wish to see it. So don't go (μὴ . . . ἴθι; put μὴ first in your sentence) to the field but take me to the city (τὸ ἄστυ)."
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby klewlis » Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:05 pm

4b
Give the genitive of the following:
1. ἡ Μυρρίνη της Μυρρινης
2. ἡ Μέλιττα της Μελιττης
3. ἡ καλὴ ὑδρίᾱ της καλης ὑδριας
4. ἡ καλὴ ἑορτή της καλης ἑορτης
5. ἡ καλὴ κρήνη της καλης κρηνης
6. ὁ μακρὸς πόνος του μακρου πονου
7. ἡ καλὴ μέλιττα της καλης μελιττης
8. τὸ καλὸν δένδρον του καλου δενδρου

4c
Supply the correct form of the definite article:
1. αἱ καλαὶ γυναῖκες
2. ἐν τῳ ἀγρῳ
3. πρὸς τῃ κρήνῃ
4. των ἄλλων ἀνδρῶν
5. ἐκ της γῆς
6. ἐν ταις ὑδρίαις
7. τα μεγάλα δένδρα
8. οἱ ἄγγελοι

4d
Put into the plural and translate:
1. ἡ κόρη ἄγει τὴν φ΄λην ἐκ τοῦ ἀγροῦ. The girls lead their friends from the fields.
2. ἡ δούλη τὴν ὑδρίᾱν φέρει πρὸς τὴν κρήνην. The slaves carry the water jugs to the spring.
3. καλή ἐστιν ἡ κόρη: ἆρ' οὐκ ἐθέλεις αὐτὴν καλεῖν; The girls are beautiful; do you want to call them?
4. χαῖρε, ὦ κόρη: ἆρα βαδίζεις πρὸς τὴν οἰκίᾶν; Greetings, girls, are you walking to the house?
5. ἐν νῳ ἔχω λείπειν τὴν ὑδρίᾱν ἐν τῃ οἰκίᾳ καὶ σθλλαμβάνειν. We intend to leave the water jugs in the house and to help.

4e
Put into the singular and translate:
1. αἱ φίλαι μένοθσι πρὸς ταῖς κρήναις. The friend is staying at the spring.
2. οἱ ἄνθρωποι φέρουσι τὰ ἄροτρα ἐκ τῶν ἀγρῶν. The man is taking the plow from the field.
3. ἀκούετε, ὦ φίλοι : ἐν νῳ ἔχομεν βαδίζειν πρὸς τὰς οἰκίᾱς. Listen, friend; I intend to go home.
4. τί ποιεῖτε, ὦ δοῦλοι; μὴ οὕτω σκαιοὶ ἔστε. What are you doing, slave? Do not be so clumsy.
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby Markos » Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:05 pm

klewlis wrote:...I can't figure out how to get both the subscript and the circumflex...help.

If you have the Windows Polytonic Greek keyboard, hit ctrl and alt at the same time. Then hit the left bracket key (just to the right of the p key) and then hit the v for ῷ or the h for ῇ.
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby klewlis » Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:51 pm

Markos wrote:
klewlis wrote:...I can't figure out how to get both the subscript and the circumflex...help.

If you have the Windows Polytonic Greek keyboard, hit ctrl and alt at the same time. Then hit the left bracket key (just to the right of the p key) and then hit the v for ῷ or the h for ῇ.


ῷ ῇ

perfect, thanks!
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby klewlis » Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:57 am

In the "Greek Wisdom" on page 45, it gives the following quote by Πιττακός : καιρὸν γνῶθι.

And maybe I am tired (or just dense) but I have no idea what that means. I always think of καιρον as "time", but I know that it has other meanings. γνωθι is aorist imperative singular (according to the perseus parser).

Can someone enlighten me please? Do we need context? :)
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby brunapogliano » Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:00 pm

klewlis wrote:In the "Greek Wisdom" on page 45, it gives the following quote by Πιττακός : καιρὸν γνῶθι.

And maybe I am tired (or just dense) but I have no idea what that means. I always think of καιρον as "time", but I know that it has other meanings. γνωθι is aorist imperative singular (according to the perseus parser).

Can someone enlighten me please? Do we need context? :)


hello,
yes, time but particularly "the right time or moment", the quotation meaning is: learn to judge the right moment
source: http://www.slideshare.net/jkyriazoglou/ ... eek-maxims
go to page 38 of the link, though you won't find much more.

bye, bruna
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby klewlis » Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:41 am

brunapogliano wrote:
klewlis wrote:In the "Greek Wisdom" on page 45, it gives the following quote by Πιττακός : καιρὸν γνῶθι.

And maybe I am tired (or just dense) but I have no idea what that means. I always think of καιρον as "time", but I know that it has other meanings. γνωθι is aorist imperative singular (according to the perseus parser).

Can someone enlighten me please? Do we need context? :)


hello,
yes, time but particularly "the right time or moment", the quotation meaning is: learn to judge the right moment
source: http://www.slideshare.net/jkyriazoglou/ ... eek-maxims
go to page 38 of the link, though you won't find much more.

bye, bruna


Thanks. It would be nice if the book would give a bit of info about it!
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby jaihare » Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:51 pm

klewlis wrote:4e
Put into the singular and translate:
1. αἱ φίλαι μένοθσι πρὸς ταῖς κρήναις. The friend is staying at the spring.
2. οἱ ἄνθρωποι φέρουσι τὰ ἄροτρα ἐκ τῶν ἀγρῶν. The man is taking the plow from the field.
3. ἀκούετε, ὦ φίλοι : ἐν νῳ ἔχομεν βαδίζειν πρὸς τὰς οἰκίᾱς. Listen, friend; I intend to go home.
4. τί ποιεῖτε, ὦ δοῦλοι; μὴ οὕτω σκαιοὶ ἔστε. What are you doing, slave? Do not be so clumsy.


I think you're actually supposed to put the Greek into the singular and then translate it. ;)

Thus, 1: ἡ φίλη μένει (I assume μένοθσι is a typo for μένουσι) πρὸς τῇ κρήνῃ. The friend (f.) is waiting at the spring.

What do you think?
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby klewlis » Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:32 am

that's what I did!
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby jaihare » Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:48 am

klewlis wrote:that's what I did!


Well, I don't see the Greek in the singular. I see Greek in plural and English in singular.
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby klewlis » Fri Sep 05, 2014 2:55 pm

jaihare wrote:
klewlis wrote:that's what I did!


Well, I don't see the Greek in the singular. I see Greek in plural and English in singular.


Oh I see what you're saying. I did that extra step in my head. ;)
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby jaihare » Fri Sep 05, 2014 3:49 pm

klewlis wrote:
jaihare wrote:
klewlis wrote:that's what I did!


Well, I don't see the Greek in the singular. I see Greek in plural and English in singular.


Oh I see what you're saying. I did that extra step in my head. ;)

Isn't it easy to skip the step if you don't do it visually (or orally, if you're doing that with someone else)? I mean, you can read αἱ φίλαι μένουσι πρὸς ταῖς κρήναις and immediately translate it into English ("the friends are waiting at the springs") and then simply put that output into the singular ("the friend is waiting at the spring"). How can you know "in your head" if you didn't just skip the manipulation of the Greek text itself? The whole goal is to get your to think more in Greek.

I'm just trying to be helpful. You should do it visually, actively manipulate the Greek so that you are changing singulars to plurals, turning statements into questions, creating blanks to be filled in, etc. That is the most useful way to do this, rather than just translating. Know what I mean?

For example:
αἱ φίλαι μένουσι πρὸς ταῖς κρήναις.
τίς μένει πρὸς ταῖς κρήναις; αἱ φίλαι μένουσιν ἐκεῖ.
ποῦ μένουσιν αἱ φίλαι; ἐν ταῖς κρήναις μένουσιν.
πόσαι φίλαι μένουσι πρὸς ταῖς κρήναις; πέντε φίλαι μένουσι πρὸς ταῖς κρήναις.
τί πράττουσιν αἱ φίλαι; μένουσιν αἱ φίλαι πρὸς ταῖς κρήναις.
et cetera

Then you can switch it to the singular:
ἡ φίλη μένει πρὸς τῇ κρήνῃ.
τίς μένει πρὸς τῇ κρήνῃ;
ποῦ μένει ἡ φίλη;
πόσαι κόραι/γυναῖκες ("how many girls/women") μένουσι πρὸς τῇ κρήνῃ;
τί πράττει ἡ φίλη;
et cetera

This is the type of activity that I'm just getting into doing with Σαῦλος in our study of Greek: An Intensive Course. It gets me to think about the words, to use them myself, to drill the forms orally and to produce meaningful phrases on my own.

I know it's tedious to do this all the way through a textbook, but at least make sure that you're producing Greek and try not to skip the most important step -- the manipulation of the Greek words.

Good luck! :)

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby klewlis » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:03 pm

I appreciate what you're saying, and I do agree that it's best for bare beginners to practice sing/pl explicitly, but I'm not a bare beginner and my sing/pl transitions are quite easy and well-practiced already (3 years of Koine in college, now I am refreshing and transitioning to Attic). :)
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby jaihare » Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:41 pm

klewlis wrote:I appreciate what you're saying, and I do agree that it's best for bare beginners to practice sing/pl explicitly, but I'm not a bare beginner and my sing/pl transitions are quite easy and well-practiced already (3 years of Koine in college, now I am refreshing and transitioning to Attic). :)

Me, too, actually. I took three years (six semesters) of κοινή in Bible college. I worked through level 1 of Ἀθήναζε and am now working on Greek: An Intensive Course with a friend online. We are discussing the text and doing oral drills on Skype. You can follow my progress with the textbook here, if you're interested.

The transition from κοινή into ἀττική is really challenging sometimes. I wish I had done it the other way around.

Even though I can transition between singular and plural without thinking, I still think it's worthwhile to be thorough and clear in the work that we put together. If nothing else, for those who are still beginners and would like to use our own work as a guide for theirs.

ἔρρωσο, ὦ φίλη.
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby klewlis » Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:46 am


Translate into Greek:
1. Dicaeopolis approaches Myrrhine and says, "Greetings, dear wife (γύναι). What are you doing?"
Δικαιοπολις προσχωρει Μυρρινην και φησιν, Χαιρε, γυνε φιλε. Τί ποιεις;

2. "I am hurrying to the spring. For I wish to carry water (τὸ ὔδωρ) to the house. But what are you doing?"
Ἐγω σπευδω προς την κρηνην. ἐθελω γαρ φερειν τον ὑδατον προς τον οἰκον. ἀλλα τί συ ποιεις;

3. "The slave and I are hurrying to the field. But listen." (Reverse the polite order of the subjects in the English and put the 1st person pronoun first in the Greek.)
ἐγω και ὁ δουλος σπευδομεν προς τον ἀγρον. ἀκουε δε. (is that phrase legit?)

4. "The Athenians are celebrating a festival. Do you wish to see it?"
οἱ Ατηναιοι ἑορτην ποιουσιν. ἐθελεις αὐτην θεωρειν;

5. "I very much wish to see it. So don't go (μὴ . . . ἴθι; put μὴ first in your sentence) to the field but take me to the city (τὸ ἄστυ)."
ἐγω μαλιστα ἐθελω αὐτην θεωρειν. μη οὐν προς τον ἀγρον ἰθι, αλλα με ἀγε προς το ἀστυ.
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby klewlis » Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:14 am

jaihare wrote:
klewlis wrote:I appreciate what you're saying, and I do agree that it's best for bare beginners to practice sing/pl explicitly, but I'm not a bare beginner and my sing/pl transitions are quite easy and well-practiced already (3 years of Koine in college, now I am refreshing and transitioning to Attic). :)

Me, too, actually. I took three years (six semesters) of κοινή in Bible college. I worked through level 1 of Ἀθήναζε and am now working on Greek: An Intensive Course with a friend online. We are discussing the text and doing oral drills on Skype. You can follow my progress with the textbook here, if you're interested.

The transition from κοινή into ἀττική is really challenging sometimes. I wish I had done it the other way around.

Even though I can transition between singular and plural without thinking, I still think it's worthwhile to be thorough and clear in the work that we put together. If nothing else, for those who are still beginners and would like to use our own work as a guide for theirs.

ἔρρωσο, ὦ φίλη.
Ἰάσων τοῦ Ἰωάννου


as if on cue, Lesson 5 has us going directly back and forth between singular and plural, lol (5β and 5γ).
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby brunapogliano » Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:46 am


Translate into Greek:


1. Ὁ Δικαιόπολις προσχωρεῖ τῇ Μυρρίνῃ καὶ λέγει• "Χαῖρε, ὦ φίλη γύναι. Τὶ ποιεῖς;"
2. Ἐγὼ μὲν σπεύδω πρὸς τὴν κρήνην. Βούλομαι γὰρ τὸ ὕδωρ οἴκαδε φέρειν. Σὺ δὲ τὶ ποιεῖς;
3. Ἐγὼ τε καὶ ὁ δοῦλος σπεύδομεν πρὸς τὸν ἀγρὸν. Ἀλλὰ ἄκουε
4. Οἱ Ἀθηναῖοι ἑορτὴν ποιοῦσιν. Ἄρα ἐθέλεις αὐτὴν θεωρεῖν;
5. Ἐγὼ μάλα ἐθέλω αὐτὴν θεωρεῖν. Μὴ οὖν ἴθι πρὸς τὸν ἀγρὸν ἀλλὰ ἄγε με πρὸς τὸ ἄστυ
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby brunapogliano » Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:57 am

Hello,

klewlis wrote:
Translate into Greek:
1. Dicaeopolis approaches Myrrhine and says, "Greetings, dear wife (γύναι). What are you doing?"
Δικαιοπολις προσχωρει Μυρρινην και φησιν, Χαιρε, γυνε φιλε. Τί ποιεις;

1. Ὁ Δικαιόπολις προσχωρεῖ + dat τῇ Μυρρίνῃ ὦ φίλη γύναι
2.
φερειν τον ὑδατον
τὸ ὕδωρ (neuter accusat.)
3.
ἀκουε δε. (is that phrase legit?)
I'd say so
4. I traslated Ἄρα ἐθέλεις αὐτὴν θεωρεῖν; and I feel that Ἄρα sounds a bit like do you ....
5.
αλλα με ἀγε προς το ἀστυ
the position of με before the verbs puzzles me. I might be influenced by my mother tongue. Though I found nothing expressly against it in the sources I consulted.
:D
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby jaihare » Sat Sep 06, 2014 10:25 am

brunapogliano wrote:
klewlis wrote:5.
αλλα με ἀγε προς το ἀστυ
the position of με before the verbs puzzles me. I might be influenced by my mother tongue. Though I found nothing expressly against it in the sources I consulted.
:D

The μὲ ἄγε here feels odd to me, too. Seems more like Spanish (me trae, although the imperative would switch the order to traígame). I wouldn't place it before the verb. I'm not sure, but it doesn't seem right. If nothing else, μέ is an enclitic and would want to lend its stress to the word before it (in this case, that would become ἀλλά με ἄγε, which seems odd again). That stress would like to fall naturally on the imperative (ἄγε με!). If it were not an enclitic and were instead emphatic (as ἐμέ), then it would behave more independently, I think.

Other opinions?
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby brunapogliano » Sat Sep 06, 2014 9:40 pm

again on the topic of αλλα με ἀγε προς το ἀστυ
klewlis wrote:
5. αλλα με ἀγε προς το ἀστυ the position of με before the verbs puzzles me. I might be influenced by my mother tongue. Though I found nothing expressly against it in the sources I consulted.


I've just come across a few examples proving your translation is correct. Source: my Greek dictionary on paper, a Greek / Italian good one by the way, here below you'll find some quotations I copied:

σε προσμολεῖν καλῶ - Σοφοκλῆς - Αἴας 72
με καλεῖ, πλαστὸς ὡς εἴην πατρί - Σοφοκλῆς - Οἰδίπους Τύραννος 780

:)
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby jaihare » Sat Sep 06, 2014 10:15 pm

brunapogliano wrote:again on the topic of αλλα με ἀγε προς το ἀστυ
klewlis wrote:
5. αλλα με ἀγε προς το ἀστυ the position of με before the verbs puzzles me. I might be influenced by my mother tongue. Though I found nothing expressly against it in the sources I consulted.


I've just come across a few examples proving your translation is correct. Source: my Greek dictionary on paper, a Greek / Italian good one by the way, here below you'll find some quotations I copied:

σε προσμολεῖν καλῶ - Σοφοκλῆς - Αἴας 72
με καλεῖ, πλαστὸς ὡς εἴην πατρί - Σοφοκλῆς - Οἰδίπους Τύραννος 780

:)

Well, look at Luke 6.46 at the end of 3β here in Athenaze.

"τί δέ με καλεῖτε, 'κύριε, κύριε,' καὶ οὐ ποιεῖτε ἃ λέγω;"
Why do you call me "Lord, Lord" and do not what I say?

There we have με καλεῖτε rather than καλεῖτέ με.

I'm intrigued. :)
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby klewlis » Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:45 pm

just keeping everyone on their toes! :lol:
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby klewlis » Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:52 pm

brunapogliano wrote:Hello,

klewlis wrote:
Translate into Greek:
1. Dicaeopolis approaches Myrrhine and says, "Greetings, dear wife (γύναι). What are you doing?"
Δικαιοπολις προσχωρει Μυρρινην και φησιν, Χαιρε, γυνε φιλε. Τί ποιεις;

1. Ὁ Δικαιόπολις προσχωρεῖ + dat τῇ Μυρρίνῃ ὦ φίλη γύναι
2.
φερειν τον ὑδατον
τὸ ὕδωρ (neuter accusat.)


gah. these are things I should know. thanks for pointing them out.

does προσχωρεω always take the dative, or is this just what Athenaze is giving us for now? (my lexicon is at home and I am not!)
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby brunapogliano » Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:01 pm

klewlis wrote:[does προσχωρεω always take the dative, or is this just what Athenaze is giving us for now? (my lexicon is at home and I am not!)

it does. It takes the accusative when followed by πρός or εἰς. ex.: προσχωρεω πρὸς τὴν πόλιν

on my toes!
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby mwh » Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:44 am

On the question of ἀλλά με ἄγε:

As an enclitic, με has to slip in behind some other word, as you all know; and enclitics tend to float into second position. The trouble with ἀλλά με ἄγε is that ἀλλά scarcely counts as a word in its own right; so this word order would be most irregular. ἀλλὰ ἐμὲ ἄγε (ἀλλ’ ἔμ’ ἄγε) would be fine; but it would mean “Take me” (not someone else). The best position for με (always unemphatic, always enclitic) would be tucked in behind the verb, ἀλλ’ ἄγε με. That puts με effectively in 2nd position (ἀλλὰ not being weighty enough to count). So Bruna’s first instincts were quite correct, and Jason’s first follow-up post was on the money.

σε προσμολεῖν καλῶ - Σοφοκλῆς - Αἴας 72
με καλεῖ, πλαστὸς ὡς εἴην πατρί - Σοφοκλῆς - Οἰδίπους Τύραννος 78
These are not parallel. In the Ajax passage it’s actually the emphatic form σέ, with accent, the 2nd-person equivalent of ἐμέ, so it can come up front (“It’s you I’m calling”). With σέ σοῦ σοί it’s always important to notice whether or not it has an accent of its own, distinguishing the emphatic from the enclitic forms.
In the OT passage the με comes after other stuff, as it has to (being enclitic), so that's different too.

τί δέ με καλεῖτε 'κύριε, κύριε' καὶ οὐ ποιεῖτε ἃ λέγω; (“Why do you call me “Master, master,” and don’t do what I say?”)
Here the τί makes all the difference. The δέ, which doesn’t count as a separate word at all (even less than ἀλλά, in fact, since it can’t come in first position), unobtrusively interposes itself between τί and με, and has no effect on the word order. τί με καλεῖτε (unlike ἀλλά με καλεῖτε), with or without δέ after τί, is regular word order. The με has something solid (τί) to cling on to.

Hope this helps more than it confuses!
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby klewlis » Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:21 am

that does help, thanks.

Hopefully I can remember it next time.
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby jaihare » Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:19 pm

I want to try to get some answers up here for Lesson 4 tomorrow. I'm working on Greek: An Intensive Course in parallel to reviewing Athenaze here with you guys, so I don't know what I'll really make time for tomorrow or if I'll have any time at all. I'm on a day of standby for flights, so I could end up flying to Hong Kong or London or New York tomorrow. I never really know until they call me. Then again, I could just be at home all day studying Greek.

You know which I'd prefer?! :)
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby jaihare » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:18 am

Exercise 4β
1. ἡ Μυρρίνη → τῆς Μυρρίνης
2. ἡ Μέλιττα → τῆς Μελίττης
3. ἡ καλὴ ὑδρία → τῆς καλῆς ὑδρίας
4. ἡ καλὴ ἑορτή → τῆς καλῆς ἑορτῆς
5. ἡ καλὴ κρήνη → τῆς καλῆς κρήνης
6. ὁ μακρὸς πόνος → τοῦ μακροῦ πόνου
7. ἡ καλὴ μέλιττα → τῆς καλῆς μελίττης
8. τὸ καλὸν δένδρον → τοῦ καλοῦ δένδρου

Exercise 4γ
1. αἱ καλαὶ γυναῖκες
2. ἐν τῷ ἀγρῷ
3. πρὸς τῇ κρήνῃ
4. τῶν ἄλλων ἀνδρῶν
5. ἐκ τῆς γῆς
6. ἐν ταῖς ὑδρίαις
7. τὰ μεγάλα δένδρα
8. οἱ ἄγγελοι

Exercise 4δ
1. ἡ κόρη (S) ἄγει (TV) τὴν φίλην (DO) ἐκ τοῦ ἀγροῦ. → αἱ κόραι ἄγουσι τὰς φίλας ἐκ τῶν ἀγρῶν. The girls lead their friends out of the fields.
2. ἡ δούλη (S) τὴν ὑδρίαν (DO) φέρει (TV) πρὸς τὴν κρήνην. → αἱ δοῦλαι τὰς ὑδρίας φέρουσι πρὸς τὰς κρήνας. The slave girls carry the water jars to the springs.
3. καλή (C) ἐστιν (LV) ἡ κόρη (S)· ἆρ᾿ οὐκ ἐθέλεις (TV) αὐτὴν (DO) καλεῖν (TV-INF); → καλαί εἰσιν αἱ κόραι· ἆρ᾿ οὐκ ἐθέλετε αὐτὰς καλεῖν; The girls are lovely; don’t you (p.) want to call them?
4. χαῖρε (IV-IMP), ὦ κόρη· ἆρα βαδίζεις (IV) πρὸς τὴν οἰκίαν; → χαίρετε, ὦ κόραι· ἆρα βαδίζετε πρὸς τὰς οἰκίας; Hello, girls. Are you (p.) walking to the houses?
5. ἐν νῷ ἔχω (TV) λείπειν (TV-INF) τὴν ὑδρίαν (DO) ἐν τῇ οἰκίᾳ καὶ συλλαμβάνειν (IV). → ἐν νῷ ἔχομεν λείπειν τὰς ὑδρίας ἐν ταῖς οἰκίαις καὶ συλλαμβάνειν. We intend to leave the water jars in the houses and help.

Exercise 4ε
1. ἡ φίλη μένει πρὸς τῇ κρήνῃ. → The friend (f.) is waiting at the spring.
2. ὁ ἄνθρωπος φέρει τὸ ἄροτρον ἐκ τοῦ ἀγροῦ. → The person is carrying the plough out of the field.
3. ἄκουε, ὦ φίλε· ἐν νῷ ἔχω βαδίζειν πρὸς τὴν οἰκίαν. → Listen, friend; I am intending to walk to the house.
4. τί ποιεῖς, ὦ δοῦλε; μὴ οὕτω σκαιὸς ἴσθι. → What are you doing, slave? Don’t be so clumsy!

Exercise 4κ
1. acc. pl.
2. dat. sg.
3. dat. sg.
4. acc. sg.
5. voc. sg.
6. acc. sg.
7. gen. sg.
8. gen. sg.
9. dat. pl.
10. gen. sg.
11. nom. pl.
12. gen. sg.
13. dat. pl.
14. acc. sg.
15. voc. pl.

Exercise 4λ
1. ὁ Δικαιόπολις τῇ Μυρρίνῃ προσχωρεῖ καὶ «χαῖρε, ὦ γύναι,» φησί· «τί ποιεῖς;»
2. «ἐγὼ πρὸς τὴν κρήνην σπεύδω. ὕδωρ γὰρ πρὸς τὴν οἰκίαν φέρειν ἐθέλω. σὺ δὲ τί ποιεῖς;»
3. «ἐγὼ καὶ οἱ δοῦλοι πρὸς τὸν ἀγρὸν σπεύδομεν. ἀλλ᾿ ἄκουε·
4. «οἱ Ἀθηναῖοι ἑορτὴν ποιοῦσιν. ἐθέλεις θεωρεῖν αὐτήν;»
5. «ἐγὼ μάλιστα ἐθέλω θεωρεῖν αὐτήν. μὴ οὖν ἴθι πρὸς τὸν ἀγρόν, ἀλλὰ λάμβανέ με (λαβέ με OR ἄγε με) πρὸς τὸ ἄστυ.»
Last edited by jaihare on Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby jaihare » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:21 am

I couldn't decide which verb to use for the last English-to-Greek translation exercise above.

Take me to the city. → λαμβάνω OR ἄγω?

I wasn't sure which would be best, so I chose to represent them both, and I put an option for λαμβάνω also in the aorist, since it makes better since as a one-time single-event action (λαβέ με) rather than a continuous or repetitious action (λάμβανέ με). In the collation we did on GreekStudy, most of the participants chose ἄγω over λαμβάνω. I know that -λαβεῖν is used in the NT with people as the object. For example:

Matt. 26.37 - καὶ παραλαβὼν τὸν Πέτρον καὶ τοὺς δύο υἱοὺς Ζεβεδαίου ἤρξατο λυπεῖσθαι καὶ ἀδημονεῖν.

Acts 23.18 uses both verbs together:

ὁ μὲν οὖν παραλαβὼν αὐτὸν ἤγαγεν πρὸς τὸν χιλίαρχον καὶ φησίν· Ὁ δέσμιος Παῦλος προσκαλεσάμενός με ἠρώτησεν τοῦτον τὸν νεανίαν ἀγαγεῖν πρὸς σέ, ἔχοντά τι λαλῆσαί σοι.

This latter would be "so he took him and brought him to the commander."

With this in mind, perhaps we should add the παρα- prefix to this:

παραλαβέ με πρὸς τὸ ἄστυ.

What do you think?
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby ariphron » Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:29 pm

I decided it might be a good idea to try this group. Here's my work; I've already corrected some mistakes based on jaihare's answers. For λ5 I'm assuming the desired verb is ἄγειν because the reading on p. 51 includes the phrase “ἐκεῖσε ἄγειν”.

4b
Give the genitive of the following:
1. ἡ Μυρρίνη > τῆς Μυρρίνης
2. ἡ Μέλιττα > τῆς Μελίττης
3. ἡ καλὴ ὑδρίᾱ > τῆς καλῆς ὑδρίας
4. ἡ καλὴ ἑορτή > τῆς καλῆς ἑορτῆς
5. ἡ καλὴ κρήνη > τῆς καλῆς κρήνης
6. ὁ μακρὸς πόνος > τοῦ μακροῦ πόνου
7. ἡ καλὴ μέλιττα > τῆς καλῆς μελίττης
8. τὸ καλὸν δένδρον > τοῦ καλοῦ δένδρου

4c
Supply the correct form of the definite article:
1. __αἱ__ καλαὶ γυναῖκες
2. ἐν __τῷ__ ἀγρῷ
3. πρὸς __τῇ__ κρήνῃ
4. __τῶν__ ἄλλων ἀνδρῶν
5. ἐκ __τῆς__ γῆς
6. ἐν __ταῖς__ ὑδρίαις
7. __τὰ__ μεγάλα δένδρα
8. __οἱ__ ἄγγελοι

4d
Put into the plural and translate:
1. ἡ κόρη ἄγει τὴν φίλην ἐκ τοῦ ἀγροῦ.
> αἱ κόραι ἄγουσι τὴν φίλην εκ τοῦ ἀγροῦ.
The girl leads her friend from the field.
2. ἡ δούλη τὴν ὑδρίᾱν φέρει πρὸς τὴν κρήνην.
> αἱ δοῦλαι τὴν ὑδρίαν φέρουσι πρὸς τὴν κρήνην.
The slave-woman carries the jug to the fountain.
3. καλή ἐστιν ἡ κόρη· ἆρ' οὐκ ἐθέλεις αὐτὴν καλεῖν;
> καλαί εἰσιν αἱ κόραι· ἆρ’ οὐκ έθἐλεις αὐτὰς καλεῖν;
The girl is good: don’t you want to call her?
4. χαῖρε, ὦ κόρη: ἆρα βαδίζεις πρὸς τὴν οἰκίᾶν;
> χαῖρετε, ὦ κόραι· ᾶρα βαδίζετε πρὸς τὴν οἰκίαν;
Hello, girl: are you walking home?
5. ἐν νῷ ἔχω λείπειν τὴν ὑδρίᾱν ἐν τῃ οἰκίᾳ καὶ συλλαμβάνειν.
> ἐν νῷ ἔχομεν λείπειν τὰς ὑδρίας ἐν ταῖς οἰκίαις καὶ συλλαμβάνειν.
I’m thinking of leaving the jug at home and helping.
4e
Put into the singular and translate:
1. αἱ φίλαι μένουσι πρὸς ταῖς κρήναις.
> ἡ φίλη μένει πρὸς τῇ κρήνῃ.
2. οἱ ἄνθρωποι φέρουσι τὰ ἄροτρα ἐκ τῶν ἀγρῶν.
> ὁ ἄνθρωπος φέρει τὸ ἄροτρον ἐκ τοῦ ἀγροῦ.
3. ἀκούετε, ὦ φίλοι : ἐν νῷ ἔχομεν βαδίζειν πρὸς τὰς οἰκίᾱς.
> ἄκουε, ὦ φίλε· ἐν νῷ ἔχω βαδίζειν πρὸς τὴν οἰκίαν.
4. τί ποιεῖτε, ὦ δοῦλοι; μὴ οὕτω σκαιοὶ ἔστε.
> τί ποιεῖς, ὦ δοῦλε; μὴ οὕτω σκαιὸς ἴσθι.


Translate into Greek:
1. Dicaeopolis approaches Myrrhine and says, "Greetings, dear wife (γύναι). What are you doing?"
> ὁ Δικαιόπολις προσχώρει τῇ Μυρρίνῃ καὶ, “χαίρε, ῶ γύναι,” φησίν. “τί ποιεῖς;”
2. "I am hurrying to the spring. For I wish to carry water (τὸ ὔδωρ) to the house. But what are you doing?"
> “πρὸς τὴν κρὴνην σπεύδω. ἐθέλω γὰρ ὕδωρ πρὸς τὴν οἰκίαν φέρειν. ἀλλὰ τί ποίεις;”
3. "The slave and I are hurrying to the field. But listen." (Reverse the polite order of the subjects in the English and put the 1st person pronoun first in the Greek.)
> “εγώ τε καὶ ὁ δοῦλος σπεύδομεν πρὸς τὸν ἀγρόν. ἀλλὰ ἄκουε.”
4. "The Athenians are celebrating a festival. Do you wish to see it?"
> “οἱ Αθηναῖοι ἑορτὴν ποίουσιν. ἆρα ἐθέλεις αὐτὴν θεωρεῖν;”
5. "I very much wish to see it. So don't go (μὴ . . . ἴθι; put μὴ first in your sentence) to the field but take me to the city (τὸ ἄστυ)."
> μάλιστα ἐθέλω αὐτὴν θεωρεῖν. μὴ οὖν ἴθι πρὸς τὸν αγρὸν ἀλλὰ ἀγε με εἰς τὸ ἄστυ.
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby jaihare » Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:54 am

I guess I missed in 4δ that we were supposed to put it into the plural before translating. I've gone back and done that.

:)

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby brunapogliano » Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:10 pm

mwh wrote:On the question of ἀλλά με ἄγε:


Thank you for your exhaustive answer, I have not been able to comment earlier but I am going to do it now.
I understand and share your opinion, now the point is:
ἀλλά scarcely counts as a word in its own right
what evidence do we have? I mean, what source or resource could I refer to? Is a rule clearly stated anywhere?

σε προσμολεῖν καλῶ - Σοφοκλῆς - Αἴας 72
In the Ajax passage it’s actually the emphatic form σέ, with accent, the 2nd-person equivalent of ἐμέ, so it can come up front (“It’s you I’m calling”). With σέ σοῦ σοί it’s always important to notice whether or not it has an accent of its own, distinguishing the emphatic from the enclitic forms.

Unfortunately I had copied the unaccented σε correctly from my dictionary. I will write the publishing house.

I hope to have explained my doubts clearly. thank you for any future comments and help
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby Paul Derouda » Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:32 pm

jaihare wrote:Take me to the city. → λαμβάνω OR ἄγω?

The way I see it, you should use ἄγω. I think the basic meaning of λαμβάνω is "seize" and you use it when you take something toward yourself. In this respect the English "take me to the city" is less logical. Someone correct me if I'm wrong...
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby Paul Derouda » Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:39 pm

jaihare wrote:Acts 23.18 uses both verbs together:

ὁ μὲν οὖν παραλαβὼν αὐτὸν ἤγαγεν πρὸς τὸν χιλίαρχον καὶ φησίν· Ὁ δέσμιος Παῦλος προσκαλεσάμενός με ἠρώτησεν τοῦτον τὸν νεανίαν ἀγαγεῖν πρὸς σέ, ἔχοντά τι λαλῆσαί σοι.

I think this means "He summoned (παραλαβὼν) him to himself and took (ἤγαγεν) him to the khiliarkhos..."
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby jaihare » Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:30 am

Paul Derouda wrote:
jaihare wrote:Acts 23.18 uses both verbs together:

ὁ μὲν οὖν παραλαβὼν αὐτὸν ἤγαγεν πρὸς τὸν χιλίαρχον καὶ φησίν· Ὁ δέσμιος Παῦλος προσκαλεσάμενός με ἠρώτησεν τοῦτον τὸν νεανίαν ἀγαγεῖν πρὸς σέ, ἔχοντά τι λαλῆσαί σοι.

I think this means "He summoned (παραλαβὼν) him to himself and took (ἤγαγεν) him to the khiliarkhos..."

What do you make, then, of Acts 12.25?

Βαρναβᾶς δὲ καὶ Σαῦλος ὑπέστρεψαν, εἰς Ἰερουσαλὴμ πληρώσαντες τὴν διακονίαν, συμπαραλαβόντες Ἰωάννην τὸν ἐπικληθέντα Μᾶρκον.

Adding συν- to the word doesn't change the essential meaning of παραλαβεῖν in your thinking, does it? It just means "bring someone with you" or "bring someone along." Thus, without συν-, we have simply "bring someone (somewhere)."

In my thinking, I associate παραλαβεῖν with the Hebrew להביא and ἀγαγεῖν with the Hebrew להוביל (in this type of context). Perhaps I've got it wrongly associated in my way of thinking, but that's how I would understand this. Thus, I think of the sentence in question as "take me along with you" rather than "lead me" to a place. You lead oxen (ἀγαγεῖν). You lead slaves (ἀγαγεῖν). You lead people who are lost (ἀγαγεῖν). But you take a friend along with you when you visit a new place ([συμ]παραλαβεῖν). The παρα- represents "with you" (παρά σοι), as in saying that you are taking this other person to this place in your own presence.

Is this not the case?

[Interestingly, we would more colloquially use לקחת in this type of sentence in Hebrew: קח אותי (איתך) לעיר. The original sentence said "take me to the city," and I think "take" (as in Hebrew לקחת) matches the sense well. Look at Matthew 2.20: Ἐγερθεὶς παράλαβε τὸ παιδίον καὶ τὴν μητέρα αὐτοῦ καὶ πορεύου εἰς γῆν Ἰσραήλ, τεθνήκασιν γὰρ οἱ ζητοῦντες τὴν ψυχὴν τοῦ παιδίου. What I'm lacking is the simple "take X to Y" in the Greek. Perhaps in my answer, I need to incorporate both words! I should change it to παράλαβέ με καὶ ἄγε πρὸς τὸ ἄστυ or something.]
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ὁ μὲν Παῦλος τοὺς ἐν ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις μαθητὰς τὴν χωρὶς νόμου δικαιοσύνην τὴν ἐν Χριστῷ ἐδίδασκεν, οἱ δ᾿ ἄλλοι ἀπόστολοι τοὺς ἀνθρώπους ἐδίδασκον τηρεῖν τὸν θεῖον νόμον τὸν χειρὶ Μωϋσέως δοθέντα.
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby Paul Derouda » Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:20 am

jaihare wrote:What do you make, then, of Acts 12.25?

Βαρναβᾶς δὲ καὶ Σαῦλος ὑπέστρεψαν, εἰς Ἰερουσαλὴμ πληρώσαντες τὴν διακονίαν, συμπαραλαβόντες Ἰωάννην τὸν ἐπικληθέντα Μᾶρκον.

Well, I agree that "took along" is good translation here. But in the Greek, (συμ)παραλαβεῖν doesn't contain the idea of leading from one place to another – the essential idea of παραλαβεῖν is that the action results in the object being in the same place as the subject. The idea of "going together" comes from the context and is only implied; as far as the Greek goes, they could have "taken" John aka Mark to the city by magically teleporting him.
Look at Matthew 2.20: Ἐγερθεὶς παράλαβε τὸ παιδίον καὶ τὴν μητέρα αὐτοῦ καὶ πορεύου εἰς γῆν Ἰσραήλ, τεθνήκασιν γὰρ οἱ ζητοῦντες τὴν ψυχὴν τοῦ παιδίου. What I'm lacking is the simple "take X to Y" in the Greek. Perhaps in my answer, I need to incorporate both words! I should change it to παράλαβέ με καὶ ἄγε πρὸς τὸ ἄστυ or something.

Ἐγερθεὶς παράλαβε τὸ παιδίον καὶ τὴν μητέρα αὐτοῦ καὶ πορεύου εἰς γῆν Ἰσραήλ
I think this basically means "Get up, gather your family and go to Israel." παράλαβε is just a preliminary preparation before going (πορεύου), it doesn't mean "take them to Israel".

παράλαβέ με καὶ ἄγε πρὸς τὸ ἄστυ
"Take me with you (=let me come to you) and (then) lead me to the city"

So, I think you can use παραλαβέ for "take me to the city" when the focus is in the idea of being together thereafter ("Take me to the city"="I want to be in the city with you"). For "take X to Y", use ἄγε.

This is how I see it. I don't know Hebrew, so I can't comment that.
Last edited by Paul Derouda on Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby jaihare » Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:27 am

It's a mistake to take παραλαβεῖν to be "gather." So, yes, παράλαβέ με is an absurdity when translated this way, but it isn't an absurdity in Greek. Just check Google. ;)
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ὁ μὲν Παῦλος τοὺς ἐν ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις μαθητὰς τὴν χωρὶς νόμου δικαιοσύνην τὴν ἐν Χριστῷ ἐδίδασκεν, οἱ δ᾿ ἄλλοι ἀπόστολοι τοὺς ἀνθρώπους ἐδίδασκον τηρεῖν τὸν θεῖον νόμον τὸν χειρὶ Μωϋσέως δοθέντα.
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby Paul Derouda » Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:29 am

jaihare wrote:It's a mistake to take παραλαβεῖν to be "gather." So, yes, παράλαβέ με is an absurdity when translated this way, but it isn't an absurdity in Greek. Just check Google. ;)

Sorry, I noticed it myself and corrected myself before reading this... :)
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby Paul Derouda » Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:44 am

Hey, apparently παράλαβε has a proparoxytone accent. That's interesting, because λαβέ is oxytone.
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 4

Postby jaihare » Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:46 am

Paul Derouda wrote:Hey, apparently παράλαβε has a proparoxytone accent. That's interesting, because λαβέ is oxytone.

I know. I've been writing παράλαβέ με. Didn't you notice? ;)
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ὁ μὲν Παῦλος τοὺς ἐν ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις μαθητὰς τὴν χωρὶς νόμου δικαιοσύνην τὴν ἐν Χριστῷ ἐδίδασκεν, οἱ δ᾿ ἄλλοι ἀπόστολοι τοὺς ἀνθρώπους ἐδίδασκον τηρεῖν τὸν θεῖον νόμον τὸν χειρὶ Μωϋσέως δοθέντα.
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