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Herodotos why τῶν ταύτῃ?

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Herodotos why τῶν ταύτῃ?

Postby daivid » Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:25 pm

This from the Histories 1.194.1:
τὸ δὲ ἁπάντων θῶμα μέγιστόν μοι ἐστὶ τῶν ταύτῃ μετά γε αὐτὴν τὴν πόλιν, ἔρχομαι φράσων: τὰ πλοῖα αὐτοῖσι ἐστὶ τὰ κατὰ τὸν ποταμὸν πορευόμενα ἐς τὴν Βαβυλῶνα, ἐόντα κυκλοτερέα, πάντα σκύτινα.
This is my translation:
And the greatest wonder of all to me is of the to this besides at least the city itself, I have reached the point to indicate: the ships to it the ones traveling to Babylon being rounded and all of leather.

If I could just drop τῶν ταύτῃ and αὐτοῖσι, it would be fine. Maybe τῶν refers back to ἁπάντων but why? I can't see ταύτῃ as having any connection with anything at all. Could αὐτοῖσι be saying that he ships belonged to "them" meaning the local inhabitants?
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Re: Herodotos why τῶν ταύτῃ?

Postby Qimmik » Sat Aug 16, 2014 4:47 pm

ταύτῃ is adverbial -- "in this place," "in this area," "this way."

See LSJ οὗτος C.VIII.4:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dou%28%3Dtos

4. dat. fem. ταύτῃ,
a. on this spot, here, ταύτῃ μὲν . . , τῇδε δ᾽ αὖ . . Id.Ph. 1331; “ἀλλ᾽ ἐὰν ταύτῃ γε νικᾷ, ταυτῃὶ πεπλήξεται” Ar.Eq.271, cf. Th. 1221.


With the plural article, it could be a noun meaning "the people here". See Smyth sec. 1153:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Smyth+grammar+1153&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0007

The article has the power to make substantival any word or words to which it is prefixed.
. . .
e. Adverbs: ““οἵ τ᾽ ἔνδον συνελαμβάνοντο καὶ οἱ ἐκτὸς κατεκόπησαν” those who were inside were arrested and those outside were cut down” X. A. 2.5.32. Similarly οἱ τότε the men of that time, οἱ ἐκεῖ the dead, οἱ πάλαι the ancients.


Could αὐτοῖσι be saying that the ships belonged to "them" meaning the local inhabitants?


Yes.
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Re: Herodotos why τῶν ταύτῃ?

Postby Qimmik » Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:39 pm

On looking at this again, however, I think he's saying

τὸ δὲ ἁπάντων θῶμα μέγιστόν μοι ἐστὶ τῶν ταύτῃ θαυμάτων

"For me, the biggest wonder of all those in this region, at least after the city itself, . . . "

I think in translating I would shift the focus to the fact that the boats are round and made of leather: "they have boats traveling down the river to Babylon that are round and made entirely of leather."
Last edited by Qimmik on Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Herodotos why τῶν ταύτῃ?

Postby daivid » Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:39 pm

Qimmik wrote:On looking at this again, however, I think he's saying

τὸ δὲ ἁπάντων θῶμα μέγιστόν μοι ἐστὶ τῶν ταύτῃ θαυμάτων

"For me, the biggest wonder of all those in this region, at least after the city itself, . . . "


So τῶν ταύτῃ could be expanded to "of the wonders of the region".
Qimmik wrote:I think in translating I would shift the focus to the fact that the boats are round and made of leather: "they have boats traveling down the river to Babylon that are round and made entirely of leather."


Yes that is a much better wording.


Qimmik wrote:ταύτῃ is adverbial -- "in this place," "in this area," "this way."

That makes it much clearer.

Qimmik wrote:
Could αὐτοῖσι be saying that the ships belonged to "them" meaning the local inhabitants?


Yes.


At least I got one right. :) But to be honest it was lucky wild guess. Untill you have read enough of these you don't have a feel for what you should be looking for. There are too many posibilities so none looks like the right one.

Thanks for making my vague hunch become solid enough to be of help in the future.

And thanks for all the comments in your two posts which have fully cleared away the fog.
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Re: Herodotos why τῶν ταύτῃ?

Postby Qimmik » Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:28 pm

I should have written τὸ δὲ ἁπάντων θῶμα μέγιστόν μοι ἐστὶ τῶν ταύτῃ θωμάτων . . ., of course.
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Re: Herodotos why τῶν ταύτῃ?

Postby daivid » Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:08 pm

Qimmik wrote:I should have written τὸ δὲ ἁπάντων θῶμα μέγιστόν μοι ἐστὶ τῶν ταύτῃ θωμάτων . . ., of course.

"of course"? Putting an Attic form into the mouth of Herodotos is not something I would even notice. :)
Indeed arguably, had you written θαῦμα, it wouldn't even count as a mistake.
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