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help with sentence from Mastronarde Unit 9

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help with sentence from Mastronarde Unit 9

Postby akhnaten » Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:56 pm

Hello,
This section is on infinitive constructions.
διὰ τὸ τοὺς πολεμίους ἐν τῇ χώρᾳ μένειν φεύγουσιν οἱ πολῖται.
My incorrect answer (twice): On account of the enemy in the country, the citizens are fleeing to wait.
Answer key: Because of the fact that the enemy are remaining in the country the citizens are fleeing.

I think "διὰ τὸ τοὺς πολεμίους ἐν τῇ χώρᾳ" is all linked together; the preposition διὰ + acc., which includes both τοὺς πολεμίους and τὸ ἐν τῇ χώρᾳ. And " μένειν φεύγουσιν" belongs together, μένειν being a complementary infinitive to φεύγουσιν with an altered word order for emphasis, and finally οἱ πολῖται as subj.

It's clear that Mastronarde sees μένειν as a "subject of the infinitive" and part of the prepositional phrase διὰ τὸ τοὺς πολεμίους ἐν τῇ χώρᾳ.
Is it somehow clear that this infinitive MUST be part of the preposition, or would both translations be correct and subject to context? (It is the juxtaposition of the verbs that is almost certainly causing me to relate them so closely--probably a bad instinct).

I really appreciate the assistance on this forum. If these questions are too frequent or should be contained in a single topic, please let me know what is preferred. The guidance so far has been very helpful.
akhnaten
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Re: help with sentence from Mastronarde Unit 9

Postby Qimmik » Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:16 pm

μένειν is not a complementary infinitive to φεύγουσιν.

τὸ . . . μένειν is an articular infinitive--an infinitive with a definitive article, i.e., an infinitive used as a noun, and it's the object of the preposition διὰ: "because of the remaining" or "because of the fact of remaining."

The articular infinitive has a subject in the accusative, τοὺς πολεμίους, and an adverbial modifier, ἐν τῇ χώρᾳ.

So, we have an articular infinitive phrase: διὰ τὸ τοὺς πολεμίους ἐν τῇ χώρᾳ μένειν -- "because [of the fact that] the enemy is remaining in the country".

This articular infinitive phrase modifies the main clause, φεύγουσιν οἱ πολῖται -- "Because the enemy is remaining in the country, the citizens are fleeing."

The articular infinitive is one of the many ways the Greek article can be used to turn just about anything into a noun.

Hope this helps!
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Re: help with sentence from Mastronarde Unit 9

Postby akhnaten » Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:33 pm

thank you. it does help to know that the infinitive is taking the article! i thought it was the preposition ἐν taking the article.

I'm rereading Mastronarde, and see that the articular infinitive indeed must be used with an infinitive used with a preposition. thanks again.

--
here's an attempt at applying this into a complex sentence--any help checking it would also be welcomed:
δὶα τὸ τοὺς χαλεπούς πολεμίους τὰς ἵππους τὰς μικραίς ἀπὸ τῆς χώρας και εἰς τὴν θάλατταν ἐλαύνειν ἐθέλω ὰποθνῄσκειν συν δικαίοις ἀνθρώποις..

Because the cruel enemy is driving the little horses from the country into the sea, I wish to die with just men.
(sometimes a little humor doesn't hurt)
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Re: help with sentence from Mastronarde Unit 9

Postby Qimmik » Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:27 pm

δὶα τὸ τοὺς χαλεπος πολεμίους τὰς μικρς ἵππους ἀπὸ τῆς χώρας και εἰς τὴν θάλατταν ἐλαύνειν ἐθέλω ὰποθνῄσκειν σν δικαίοις ἀνθρώποις

These are mares.
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Re: help with sentence from Mastronarde Unit 9

Postby mwh » Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:42 pm

Qimmik wrote: the Greek article can be used to turn just about anything into a noun.

Not just just about anything—absolutely anything!

akhnaten wrote: ἐθέλω ὰποθνῄσκειν συν δικαίοις ἀνθρώποις. ... I wish to die with just men.

That would be βούλομαι rather than ἐθέλω ("I'm willing to"), and the infinitive would be aorist, αποθανεῖν, but you may not have reached that point yet.
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Re: help with sentence from Mastronarde Unit 9

Postby Qimmik » Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:19 pm

Nam Sibyllam quidem Cumis ego ipse oculis meis vidi in ampulla pendere, et cum illi pueri dicerent: σίβυλλα, τί θέλεις; respondebat illa: ἀποθανεῖν θέλω.”
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Re: help with sentence from Mastronarde Unit 9

Postby mwh » Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:24 pm

Well ok, but the distinction is normally operative. "What is your will?" rather than just "What do you want?"?
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Re: help with sentence from Mastronarde Unit 9

Postby akhnaten » Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:10 am

ah yes, i knew they were mares, but didn't translate it--all the more tragic: little girl ponies. i do appreciate the correction.
mwh, i haven't reached the forms or vocabulary yet. this is the main reason i try to avoid english-to-greek sentences at this stage--i feel that it can get me in bad habits. but, i always try to experiment with a couple sentences when i miss a translation, just so i can see some similar examples of syntax on the page.

Thanks again!
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Re: help with sentence from Mastronarde Unit 9

Postby mwh » Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:03 am

Your syntax was excellent. Looks like you've mastered use of neut. sing. article with infin. Onward and upward!
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Re: help with sentence from Mastronarde Unit 9

Postby akhnaten » Sat Jul 05, 2014 1:14 am

πάλιν τοὺς καλούς λόγους ὑμῶν ελαμβάνον, οὕτως μή καταβαίνειν δύναμαι. ἀναβαίνειν με χρή.

trans: I was receiving your (pl.) good words again, so I am not able to go down. I must go up.

*I am including my translations because, at this point, I may be making big mistakes and am unaware of it. I will hopefully get to a point where I do not do this. I may also use vocab from Koine if I have not seen it in the Attic textbook (though I will try to stick to Attic forms if I know them).
I can only translate pres. act. ind/middle/passive and imp. act. ind. today.

thanks for the help and encouragement. helps me forget about those poor lil' mares.
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Re: help with sentence from Mastronarde Unit 9

Postby mwh » Sat Jul 05, 2014 1:43 am

What a weird sentence. Is the Greek Mastronarde’s? (I have Mastronarde somewhere but right now he’s packed up in one of dozens of boxes.) I’d have expected ὥστε for οὕτως and οὐ for μή, and αλλὰ before αναβαίνειν. The translation’s ok. And the verbs are fine.
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Re: help with sentence from Mastronarde Unit 9

Postby akhnaten » Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:06 am

haha, not in mastronarde mwh that was my own greek sentence in reference to you saying "onward and upward". i am sure it is a very odd sentence. it was a poorly made pun using the few greek words i know. i used μή because it was in the unit i'm working on and wanted to use it. i don't know the replacement for "thus/so" you chose. thank you for the comments though.

also, thanks again qimmick. i was working on greek today, and suddenly realized you were not correcting my translation of mares, but no doubt correct my declensions of the related adjectives. enlarging the screen resolution helped see my error(s).
i know my accentuation is going to be a constant battle with invented greek sentences right now. i spend a lot more time on reading than writing. correct accentuation in my own writing is a rather low priority--i hope this is understandable. i really should go back to accentuation rules now that words with proclitic and enclitic behavior have been introduced in the textbooks.
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Re: help with sentence from Mastronarde Unit 9

Postby mwh » Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:33 am

Well that was stupid of me, not to have realized that. Put it down to late-night posting.

There are times to use ου, and times to use μή. As you’re learning.

And yes, it can be a pain learning accents, but if you (a) stress the accented syllable as you learn and review words and (b) learn the basic rules of accentual behavior, you’ll find it pays off.
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