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Phaedo 70.C.5 "ancient tradition"

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Phaedo 70.C.5 "ancient tradition"

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Sun Jun 29, 2014 6:07 pm

Phaedo 70.C.5
παλαιὸς μὲν οὖν ἔστι τις λόγος οὗ μεμνήμεθα, ὡς εἰσὶν ἐνθένδε
ἀφικόμεναι ἐκεῖ, καὶ πάλιν γε δεῦρο ἀφικνοῦνται καὶ γί-
γνονται ἐκ τῶν τεθνεώτων· καὶ εἰ τοῦθ' οὕτως ἔχει, πάλιν
γίγνεσθαι ἐκ τῶν ἀποθανόντων τοὺς ζῶντας, ἄλλο τι ἢ εἶεν
ἂν αἱ ψυχαὶ ἡμῶν ἐκεῖ;


Do we know anything about the referent for παλαιὸς ... τις λόγος?
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Re: Phaedo 70.C.5 "ancient tradition"

Postby Scribo » Sun Jun 29, 2014 6:14 pm

Vaguely reminiscent of the opening of Sophocles Trachiniae for me. But I've not seen it in years and am just about to go out. Check that out if you can and see?
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Re: Phaedo 70.C.5 "ancient tradition"

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Sun Jun 29, 2014 8:05 pm

Scribo wrote:Vaguely reminiscent of the opening of Sophocles Trachiniae for me. But I've not seen it in years and am just about to go out. Check that out if you can and see?


Here it is:

Δηιάνειρα

λόγος μέν ἐστ᾽ ἀρχαῖος ἀνθρώπων φανείς,
ὡς οὐκ ἂν αἰῶν᾽ ἐκμάθοις βροτῶν, πρὶν ἂν
θάνῃ τις, οὔτ᾽ εἰ χρηστὸς οὔτ᾽ εἴ τῳ κακός:
ἐγὼ δὲ τὸν ἐμόν, καὶ πρὶν εἰς Ἅιδου μολεῖν,
ἔξοιδ᾽ ἔχουσα δυστυχῆ τε καὶ βαρύν,

Deianeira
There is an ancient proverb people tell
that none can judge the life of any man
for good or bad until that man is dead;
but I, for my part, though I am still living,
know well that mine is miserable and hard.
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Re: Phaedo 70.C.5 "ancient tradition"

Postby cb » Mon Jun 30, 2014 4:21 pm

hi, the referent here is probably the orphics, or the pythagoreans, who believed in transmigration, see eg.:

https://archive.org/stream/PHAEDO/Plato ... 3/mode/2up
https://archive.org/stream/PhaedoOfPlat ... 1/mode/2up

cheers, chad
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Re: Phaedo 70.C.5 "ancient tradition"

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:30 pm

cb wrote:hi, the referent here is probably the orphics, or the pythagoreans, who believed in transmigration, see eg.:

https://archive.org/stream/PHAEDO/Plato ... 3/mode/2up
https://archive.org/stream/PhaedoOfPlat ... 1/mode/2up

cheers, chad


Thanks Chad, very helpful. With a little patience I was able to follow the notes. Figuring out what Plato actually affirms is not an easy task.
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Re: Phaedo 70.C.5 "ancient tradition"

Postby mwh » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:22 pm

C. S. Bartholomew wrote: Figuring out what Plato actually affirms is not an easy task.

Well, no. After two and a half millennia and counting, philosophers are still at it. The fact that he doesn’t actually affirm anything may have something to do with it.
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Re: Phaedo 70.C.5 "ancient tradition"

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:34 pm

mwh wrote:
C. S. Bartholomew wrote: Figuring out what Plato actually affirms is not an easy task.

Well, no. After two and a half millennia and counting, philosophers are still at it. The fact that he doesn’t actually affirm anything may have something to do with it.


Right. Plato wasn't on curriculum when I was in school. I suppose in the five undergrad courses I took in philosophy he was probably mentioned for a day or two in the Phil 101 (Will Durant, textbook).

On the other hand, Jesus (in John) makes it easy to detect an affirmation by using a formula: ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν

Not to imply that there are not ambiguities involved, there are.

CSB

John 1:51 καὶ λέγει αὐτῷ· ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ὄψεσθε τὸν οὐρανὸν ἀνεῳγότα καὶ τοὺς ἀγγέλους τοῦ θεοῦ ἀναβαίνοντας καὶ καταβαίνοντας ἐπὶ τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου.

John 3:3 ἀπεκρίθη Ἰησοῦς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, ἐὰν μή τις γεννηθῇ ἄνωθεν, οὐ δύναται ἰδεῖν τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ.

John 3:5 ἀπεκρίθη Ἰησοῦς· ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, ἐὰν μή τις γεννηθῇ ἐξ ὕδατος καὶ πνεύματος, οὐ δύναται εἰσελθεῖν εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ.

John 3:11 ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι ὅτι ὃ οἴδαμεν λαλοῦμεν καὶ ὃ ἑωράκαμεν μαρτυροῦμεν, καὶ τὴν μαρτυρίαν ἡμῶν οὐ λαμβάνετε.

John 5:19 Ἀπεκρίνατο οὖν ὁ Ἰησοῦς καὶ ἔλεγεν αὐτοῖς· ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, οὐ δύναται ὁ υἱὸς ποιεῖν ἀφ᾿ ἑαυτοῦ οὐδὲν ἐὰν μή τι βλέπῃ τὸν πατέρα ποιοῦντα· ἃ γὰρ ἂν ἐκεῖνος ποιῇ, ταῦτα καὶ ὁ υἱὸς ὁμοίως ποιεῖ.

John 5:24 Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι ὁ τὸν λόγον μου ἀκούων καὶ πιστεύων τῷ πέμψαντί με ἔχει ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ εἰς κρίσιν οὐκ ἔρχεται, ἀλλὰ μεταβέβηκεν ἐκ τοῦ θανάτου εἰς τὴν ζωήν. 25 ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι ἔρχεται ὥρα καὶ νῦν ἐστιν ὅτε οἱ νεκροὶ ἀκούσουσιν τῆς φωνῆς τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ οἱ ἀκούσαντες ζήσουσιν.

John 6:26 Ἀπεκρίθη αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς καὶ εἶπεν· ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ζητεῖτέ με οὐχ ὅτι εἴδετε σημεῖα, ἀλλ᾿ ὅτι ἐφάγετε ἐκ τῶν ἄρτων καὶ ἐχορτάσθητε.

John 6:32 εἶπεν οὖν αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς· ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, οὐ Μωϋσῆς δέδωκεν ὑμῖν τὸν ἄρτον ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ, ἀλλ᾿ ὁ πατήρ μου δίδωσιν ὑμῖν τὸν ἄρτον ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ τὸν ἀληθινόν·

John 6:47 ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ὁ πιστεύων ἔχει ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

John 6:53 εἶπεν οὖν αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς· ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ἐὰν μὴ φάγητε τὴν σάρκα τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου καὶ πίητε αὐτοῦ τὸ αἷμα, οὐκ ἔχετε ζωὴν ἐν ἑαυτοῖς.

John 8:34 ἀπεκρίθη αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς· ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ ποιῶν τὴν ἁμαρτίαν δοῦλός ἐστιν τῆς ἁμαρτίας.

John 8:51 ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ἐάν τις τὸν ἐμὸν λόγον τηρήσῃ, θάνατον οὐ μὴ θεωρήσῃ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα.

John 8:58 εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς· ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί.

John 10:1 Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ὁ μὴ εἰσερχόμενος διὰ τῆς θύρας εἰς τὴν αὐλὴν τῶν προβάτων ἀλλὰ ἀναβαίνων ἀλλαχόθεν ἐκεῖνος κλέπτης ἐστὶν καὶ λῃστής·

John 10:7 Εἶπεν οὖν πάλιν ὁ Ἰησοῦς· ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι ἐγώ εἰμι ἡ θύρα τῶν προβάτων.

John 12:24 ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ἐὰν μὴ ὁ κόκκος τοῦ σίτου πεσὼν εἰς τὴν γῆν ἀποθάνῃ, αὐτὸς μόνος μένει· ἐὰν δὲ ἀποθάνῃ, πολὺν καρπὸν φέρει.

John 13:16 ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, οὐκ ἔστιν δοῦλος μείζων τοῦ κυρίου αὐτοῦ οὐδὲ ἀπόστολος μείζων τοῦ πέμψαντος αὐτόν.

John 13:20 ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ὁ λαμβάνων ἄν τινα πέμψω ἐμὲ λαμβάνει, ὁ δὲ ἐμὲ λαμβάνων λαμβάνει τὸν πέμψαντά με. 21 Ταῦτα εἰπὼν [ὁ] Ἰησοῦς ἐταράχθη τῷ πνεύματι καὶ ἐμαρτύρησεν καὶ εἶπεν· ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι εἷς ἐξ ὑμῶν παραδώσει με.

John 13:38 ἀποκρίνεται Ἰησοῦς· τὴν ψυχήν σου ὑπὲρ ἐμοῦ θήσεις; ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, οὐ μὴ ἀλέκτωρ φωνήσῃ ἕως οὗ ἀρνήσῃ με τρίς.

John 14:12 Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ὁ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ τὰ ἔργα ἃ ἐγὼ ποιῶ κἀκεῖνος ποιήσει καὶ μείζονα τούτων ποιήσει, ὅτι ἐγὼ πρὸς τὸν πατέρα πορεύομαι·

John 16:20 ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι κλαύσετε καὶ θρηνήσετε ὑμεῖς, ὁ δὲ κόσμος χαρήσεται· ὑμεῖς λυπηθήσεσθε, ἀλλ᾿ ἡ λύπη ὑμῶν εἰς χαρὰν γενήσεται.

John 16:23 Καὶ ἐν ἐκείνῃ τῇ ἡμέρᾳ ἐμὲ οὐκ ἐρωτήσετε οὐδέν. ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ἄν τι αἰτήσητε τὸν πατέρα ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί μου δώσει ὑμῖν.

John 21:18 ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, ὅτε ἦς νεώτερος, ἐζώννυες σεαυτὸν καὶ περιεπάτεις ὅπου ἤθελες· ὅταν δὲ γηράσῃς, ἐκτενεῖς τὰς χεῖράς σου, καὶ ἄλλος σε ζώσει καὶ οἴσει ὅπου οὐ θέλεις.
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Re: Phaedo 70.C.5 "ancient tradition"

Postby mwh » Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:53 pm

I’m sorry, I was too elliptical. I was alluding to the philosophically awkward—and philosophically significant—fact that Plato, unlike other philosophers, and very much unlike John’s Jesus, who not only affirms but affirms he’s affirming, never says anything in his own person.

Plato may not have got much of a look-in in your undergrad philosophy courses but it’s undeniable that his influence on all subsequent Western philosophy is enormous, from Aristotle through to the present day, as was pointed out in your earlier Plato thread.
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Re: Phaedo 70.C.5 "ancient tradition"

Postby Scribo » Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:09 pm

Sorry C.S I automatically assumed you were after language details/parallels rather than contextual data. That's what you get for glancing! But as others have said it's almost certainly Pythagorean.
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Re: Phaedo 70.C.5 "ancient tradition"

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Tue Jul 01, 2014 5:36 am

mwh wrote:I’m sorry, I was too elliptical. I was alluding to the philosophically awkward—and philosophically significant—fact that Plato, unlike other philosophers, and very much unlike John’s Jesus, who not only affirms but affirms he’s affirming, never says anything in his own person.

Plato may not have got much of a look-in in your undergrad philosophy courses but it’s undeniable that his influence on all subsequent Western philosophy is enormous, from Aristotle through to the present day, as was pointed out in your earlier Plato thread.


Yes, that is what makes the dialogue an interesting format for presenting ideas, the author can detach himself from the narrative. Novels, stories and dialogue which keep you in the dark about the authors point of view is capable of being far more engaging than that propaganda thinly disguised as fiction where the author is beating something (agenda) to death in some tedious manner. I do a lot of reading for recreation and stories that are overtly trying to make some ideological "point" are generally bad stories on the artistic level.

RE: My undergraduate experience; it was primarily a means of delay declaring my CO (pacifist) status for four years to let my family come around to my way of seeing things. It worked. Inadvertently, I also got an education which was better than I gave it credit for at the time.

I should also give my prof more credit. We probably spent a couple of weeks on Plato and Aristotle in 101. I remember being disappointed in the class on Modern Philosophy because Existentialism was hardly mentioned. Phenomenology was constantly being aired by a disgruntled grad student who was taking the class for graduate credit. We spent the whole quarter talking about absolutes, and although Francis A. Schaeffer had recently given a lectureship on Campus concerning absolutes his name was not mentioned in class. Strange.

Plato and Aristotle both have enormous influence on Christian Dogmatics so I ran into them in graduate school.
Last edited by C. S. Bartholomew on Tue Jul 01, 2014 6:17 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Phaedo 70.C.5 "ancient tradition"

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Tue Jul 01, 2014 5:41 am

Scribo wrote:Sorry C.S I automatically assumed you were after language details/parallels rather than contextual data. That's what you get for glancing! But as others have said it's almost certainly Pythagorean.



I was after both so thanks for your post. It is always good to find language details/parallels.
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