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Dyskolos

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Dyskolos

Postby jeidsath » Wed May 07, 2014 5:00 pm

Dyskolos 1.1-4:

Τῆς Ἀττικῆς νομίζετ᾽ εἶναι τὸν τόπον
Φυλήν, τὸ νυμφαῖον δ᾽, ὅθεν προέρχομαι
Φυλασίων καὶ τῶν δυναμένων τὰς πέτρας
ἐνθάδε γεωργεῖν, ἱερὸν ἐπιφανὲς πάνυ.


I found this translation:

Think of this place as a part of Attike —
Phyle, to be exact — and the Nymphs' shrine I've come from
belongs to the Phylasians and to those who can
farm the rocks here — a famous shrine indeed.


But I think that it might be:

You think it part of Athens, the region of Phyle. But the Nymph's shrine, from where I've come, belongs to the men of Phyle and those that can farm the rocks here, a shrine open to the air [very much in full view].
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Re: Dyskolos

Postby Scribo » Wed May 07, 2014 5:58 pm

Given that the shrine in Phyle (Lichnospilia now) is a cave I'm not sure how it is open to full view. Nor does your first part make sense given that it is very much a part of Attika.
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Re: Dyskolos

Postby Qimmik » Wed May 07, 2014 6:19 pm

Without a personal pronoun νομίζετ᾽ seems better taken as imperative: the speaker is telling the audience where the action is taking place. This is necessary because stage props are minimal, and the audience doesn't have a playbill. Maybe this could be translated by "imagine".

Ἀττικῆς -- why change this to Athens? Phyle is located in Attica. δ᾽ is simply a connective here, not drawing a contrast -- there's no μέν preceding it.

If Menander were suggesting that the audience thinks the scene is Attica but in fact it's somewhere else, he would have written something like Τῆς Ἀττικῆς ὑμεῖς μὲν νομίζετ᾽ εἶναι τὸν τόπον Φυλήν, τῷ δ᾽ὄντι . . .

ἐπιφανής means "famous," "well-known". It could mean "in full view," but "open to the air" is a stretch.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3De)pifanh%2Fs

To me, πάνυ makes more sense if ἐπιφανὲς is translated as "famous". πάνυ means "very" or "very much" or "quite".

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dpa%2Fnu%5E

Hope this helps.
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Re: Dyskolos

Postby jeidsath » Thu May 08, 2014 6:11 am

Compare Thuc. 6.96.2 against "famous": καὶ μέχρι τῆς πόλεως ἐπικλινές τ’ ἐστὶ καὶ ἐπιφανὲς πᾶν ἔσω. And Menander sets his shrine to Pan next to a field, not on a cliffside. This isn't a closely based on a real location. "Evident" or "in view" would be better word choices than "open air," I agree. In fact, Pan may even be suggesting that the shrine is in view of the audience (on stage).

"If Menander were suggesting that the audience thinks the scene is Attica but in fact it's somewhere else..."

I did not mean to suggest that. Location is not at issue, but belonging. Does the place belong to the Attics, or to the Phylasians themselves and those rugged enough to "farm the rocks?"

νομίζω doesn't seem like the sort of word that you would use about something temporary like a stage.

I feel like I come across contrasting δέ without μέν very frequently. And here is someone's grammar on the point.
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Re: Dyskolos

Postby Qimmik » Thu May 08, 2014 9:56 am

Location is not at issue, but belonging.


No, location is at issue in the first clause. The audience has no idea what the location is when Pan steps out onto the stage. He has to tell them. He says:

Τῆς Ἀττικῆς νομίζετ᾽ εἶναι τὸν τόπον
Φυλήν,

"Consider the location to be part of Attica -- Phyle . . . "

Phyle is in fact part of Attica. Pan doesn't say that the audience believes the location belongs to the Athenians, or the "Attics" -- the first clause says nothing about whom the location belongs to, just where it is. The Phylasians are "Attics" themselves. Actually, they are Athenians. All of the inhabitants of Attica, leaving aside metics and slaves, were citizens of Athens, and referred to as "Athenians," not "Attics." ἡ Ἀττική is a region, not a group of people.

Pan goes on to add that the nymphaeum belongs to the Phylasians. If δ᾽ draws a contrast here, it's between the general location and the nymphaeum itself--a very weak contrast that doesn't amount to anything more than a connective. If he had wanted to draw a contrast between what the audience thinks and what is in fact true, he would have to have been more explicit, and there's no point to such a contrast here. There's no point to be made here in insisting that Phyle belongs to the Phylasians, not the Athenians--otherwise, you would expect some explanation why it would be necessary to correct the audience's misperception.

νομίζω doesn't seem like the sort of word that you would use about something temporary like a stage.


Why not? "Consider the location to be part of Attica -- Phyle." Seems perfectly natural to me. What word would you use to tell the audience where to consider the scene to be set?

Menander sets his shrine to Pan next to a field, not on a cliffside.
The field is to the right, as the next verse establishes. The nymphaeum seems to be center stage.

This isn't a closely based on a real location.
What makes you think that? He's very specific about where the scene is set--Phyle, a village in Attica. Is there any reason why the nymphaeum is not well-known to the audience? Nymphaeums were typically natural grottoes or caves, at least before structures were built around them, which is Scribo's point. They would generally not be open to view. And while "open to view" is not impossible, in context it seems as if Pan is telling the audience to imagine the scene at a place that was well-known to them.
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