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Mark 3:5 participles

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Mark 3:5 participles

Postby uberdwayne » Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:29 pm

Mark 3:5 wrote: καὶ περιβλεψάμενος αὐτοὺς μετ’ ὀργῆς, συλλυπούμενος ἐπὶ τῇ πωρώσει τῆς καρδίας αὐτῶν λέγει τῷ ἀνθρώπῳ· ἔκτεινον τὴν χεῖρα σου. καὶ ἐξέτεινεν καὶ ἀπεκατεστάθη ἡ χεῖρ αὐτοῦ.


Is it possible for the participle "συλλυπούμενος" to modify the first participle "περιβλεψάμενος". In other words, does one rely on the other or are they both separate and distinct actions? what is the relationship between the two?

τι νομιζετε;
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Re: Mark 3:5 participles

Postby Markos » Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:39 pm

Before your question gets answered, let's ask another question. What would the difference have been, had Mark written:

καὶ περιβλεψάμενος αὐτοὺς ὀργισάμενος, μετὰ λυπῆς ἐπὶ τῇ πωρώσει τῆς καρδίας αὐτῶν λέγει τῷ ἀνθρώπῳ·


or

καὶ περιβλεψάμενος αὐτοὺς ὀργίσθη. ἐπὶ δὲ τῇ πωρώσει τῆς καρδίας αὐτῶν συνελυπήθη, λέγων τῷ ἀνθρώπῳ·


instead of

καὶ περιβλεψάμενος αὐτοὺς μετ’ ὀργῆς, συλλυπούμενος ἐπὶ τῇ πωρώσει τῆς καρδίας αὐτῶν λέγει τῷ ἀνθρώπῳ·
?
I am writing in Ancient Greek not because I know Greek well, but because I hope that it will improve my fluency in reading. I got the idea for this from Adrianus over on the Latin forum here at Textkit.
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Re: Mark 3:5 participles

Postby Paul Derouda » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:40 pm

I'm not sure I understand what 'modify' means but here is how I understand this:

Casting a look at them in anger, being sad at the heardness of their hearts, he said to the man...
-> he cast a look at them in anger, sad at the heardness of their hearts, and said to the man...

περιβλεψάμενος, aorist participle, describes a single action "he cast a look (around him)", while the present participle συλλυπούμενος describes a state, the mood he is in while that look was cast - συλλυπούμενος is not really an action (circumstantial participle is maybe the grammatical term?).
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Re: Mark 3:5 participles

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:42 pm

uberdwayne wrote:
Mark 3:5 wrote: καὶ περιβλεψάμενος αὐτοὺς μετ’ ὀργῆς, συλλυπούμενος ἐπὶ τῇ πωρώσει τῆς καρδίας αὐτῶν λέγει τῷ ἀνθρώπῳ· ἔκτεινον τὴν χεῖρα σου. καὶ ἐξέτεινεν καὶ ἀπεκατεστάθη ἡ χεῖρ αὐτοῦ.


Is it possible for the participle "συλλυπούμενος" to modify the first participle "περιβλεψάμενος". In other words, does one rely on the other or are they both separate and distinct actions? what is the relationship between the two?

τι νομιζετε;


I don't think it is impossible for participle to limit (aka, modify) another participle. But I think they are parallel here. περιβλεψάμενος is "modified" by αὐτοὺς and an adverbial μετ’ ὀργῆς. συλλυπούμενος is "modified" by ἐπὶ τῇ πωρώσει which in turn is "modified" τῆς καρδίας αὐτῶν. I would call these arguments with the participle but that is not strictly how the term argument is used so perhaps it would start an argument.


Both participles are establishing the context for the finite verb. I suppose you could call them circumstantial but that's old framework terminology.

The participles tell us about Jesus internal state as he spoke the words:

ἔκτεινον τὴν χεῖρα. καὶ ἐξέτεινεν καὶ ἀπεκατεστάθη ἡ χεὶρ αὐτοῦ

A question: Does περιβλέπω take an accusative object? I don't think it does. I suspect the accusative is more like the adverbial prepositional phrase μετ’ ὀργῆς? That's why I like the term argument. It doesn't commit you to any particular parsing strategy.

EDIT:
LSJ calls this use of περιβλέπω transitive with an accusative.

LSJ entry
περιβλέπω
περι-βλέπω,
look round about, gaze around, περιβλέψας ἔφη Ar.Ec.403; πρὸς τοὺς παρόντας Pl.Erx.395c; μηδαμοῖ X.Lac.3.4; πάντῃ Luc.Sacr.9, etc.:— Med., look about one, Plu.Cat.Mi.37, Arr.Epict.3.14.3 ; περιεβλέποντο ζητοῦντες . . D.S.16.32.
trans., look round at, πάσας X.Cyr.5.1.4:—Med., ἀλλότρια ἡγεμονικὰ π. M.Ant.7.55, cf. Ev.Marc. 3.5.
seek after, covet for oneself, ἀρχήν App.BC3.7.
look about for, τινα Luc.Vit.Auct.12 ; τόπον εὐφυῆ Plb.5.20.5:—Med., Id.9.17.6, LXXTo.11.5.
admire, respect, τοὔνδικον π. S.OC996 (unless in signf. 11.3):—Pass., περιβλέπεσθαι τίμιον E.Ph.551, cf. Philostr.Her.15.
Med., look up, consult, βίβλους Zos.Alch. p.138 B.
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Re: Mark 3:5 participles

Postby uberdwayne » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:03 pm

Markos,

Markos wrote:Before your question gets answered, let's ask another question. What would the difference have been, had Mark written:

καὶ περιβλεψάμενος αὐτοὺς ὀργισάμενος, μετὰ λυπῆς ἐπὶ τῇ πωρώσει τῆς καρδίας αὐτῶν λέγει τῷ ἀνθρώπῳ·


or

καὶ περιβλεψάμενος αὐτοὺς ὀργίσθη. ἐπὶ δὲ τῇ πωρώσει τῆς καρδίας αὐτῶν συνελυπήθη, λέγων τῷ ἀνθρώπῳ·


instead of

καὶ περιβλεψάμενος αὐτοὺς μετ’ ὀργῆς, συλλυπούμενος ἐπὶ τῇ πωρώσει τῆς καρδίας αὐτῶν λέγει τῷ ἀνθρώπῳ·
?


In the first phrase "being angry" and "Looking around" seem to be done at the same time, where as the second example you gave seems that the anger came after he looked around, as if he was angry after he saw the situation. As for the second part of the sentence, the first example isn't quite as smooth because of the full stops, where as the second example flows more easily. The second part of your examples though, seem to be saying the same thing.

So I guess it boils down to these three questions... does "συλλυπούμενος" explain how "περιβλεψάμενος" was done, does it explain what happened after "περιβλεψάμενος", or is it simply adding additional detail to the whole account?

Paul Derouda wrote:I'm not sure I understand what 'modify' means


I think C.S. Bartholomew explained it better "I don't think it is impossible for participle to limit (aka, modify)"

so, Bartholomew, your saying that both of this actions/states are contemperanoues with each other? that is they are happening at the same time and one is not a product of the other?

thanks for your input guys.
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Re: Mark 3:5 participles

Postby Paul Derouda » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:53 pm

uberdwayne wrote:
καὶ περιβλεψάμενος αὐτοὺς ὀργισάμενος, μετὰ λυπῆς ἐπὶ τῇ πωρώσει τῆς καρδίας αὐτῶν λέγει τῷ ἀνθρώπῳ·


or

καὶ περιβλεψάμενος αὐτοὺς ὀργίσθη. ἐπὶ δὲ τῇ πωρώσει τῆς καρδίας αὐτῶν συνελυπήθη, λέγων τῷ ἀνθρώπῳ·


instead of

καὶ περιβλεψάμενος αὐτοὺς μετ’ ὀργῆς, συλλυπούμενος ἐπὶ τῇ πωρώσει τῆς καρδίας αὐτῶν λέγει τῷ ἀνθρώπῳ·
?

In the first phrase "being angry" and "Looking around" seem to be done at the same time, where as the second example you gave seems that the anger came after he looked around, as if he was angry after he saw the situation. As for the second part of the sentence, the first example isn't quite as smooth because of the full stops, where as the second example flows more easily. The second part of your examples though, seem to be saying the same thing.


I think that in the first phrase "getting angry" happened first and "casting a look" happened afterwards. It's just a feeling, I can't say why. And I emphasize the meaning is "getting angry" and "casting a look", because aorist is used in both, denoting an event rather than a state.

I'm no good with syntax. If I say "He looked around him sadly", does sadly modify/delimit looked? Is this analogical with the question whether one participle modifies/delimits another?
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