In Rico's book Rode has just boasted that she knows how to speak all languages and then says this
ἡ δὲ ἑλληνικὴ δύσκολος ἐν πάσαις ταῖς γλώσσαις τῆς οἰκουμένης ἐστίν
From the context it is clear that some kind of comparison is going on but it could be
“Greek is the most difficult of all the languages of the inhabited world”
or the softer
“Greek among the languages of the inhabited world is one of the more difficult”
Any pointers to which is the better translation.
ἐν πάσαις ταῖς γλώσσαις Rico - comparison?
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ἐν πάσαις ταῖς γλώσσαις Rico - comparison?
Last edited by daivid on Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ἐν πάσαις ταῖς γλώσσαις Ricco - comparison?
But where in this sentence do we have more or most?
Perhaps it was their intention to write it is the most difficult
but then you'd expect δυσκολώτατος.
Perhaps it was their intention to write it is the most difficult
but then you'd expect δυσκολώτατος.
Nate.
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Re: ἐν πάσαις ταῖς γλώσσαις Ricco - comparison?
Only that the context seems to require it. If the dative is no acting as some kind of comparison I am at loss to know what ἐν πάσαις ταῖς γλώσσαις τῆς οἰκουμένης adds to the meaningNateD26 wrote:But where in this sentence do we have more or most?
.
That is what I too would have expected.NateD26 wrote: Perhaps it was their intention to write it is the most difficult
but then you'd expect δυσκολώτατος.
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Re: ἐν πάσαις ταῖς γλώσσαις Ricco - comparison?
When I read the phrase I was reminded of--I am reminded of-- Romans 16:7
I would go so far as to say that ἐν plus the dative, if the context supports it, can be idiomatic for an implicit comparison. I'm pretty sure I have read more examples of this, but they would be hard to track down because ἐν is so common.
On the one hand, there is nothing inherently comparative about the phrase here. It just means "eminent among the apostles." But there is a hint of comparison. Standing out among the apostles, Andronicus and Junia are more prominent than some--not by any means the most eminent--but not just your average, everyday apostles. As always, context is everything. If your boss tells you, "you shine among your co-workers," it does not necessarily mean that you are better than the other workers, but that is among the implications. Same thing here in both Paul and Rico's phrases.Romans 16:7: ἀσπάσασθε Ἀνδρόνικον καὶ Ἰουνιᾶν τοὺς συγγενεῖς μου καὶ συναιχμαλώτους μου, οἵτινές εἰσιν ἐπίσημοι ἐν τοῖς ἀποστόλοις, οἳ καὶ πρὸ ἐμοῦ γεγόνασιν ἐν Χριστῷ.
I would go so far as to say that ἐν plus the dative, if the context supports it, can be idiomatic for an implicit comparison. I'm pretty sure I have read more examples of this, but they would be hard to track down because ἐν is so common.
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Re: ἐν πάσαις ταῖς γλώσσαις Ricco - comparison?
Thanks for that quote. I shall keep an eye out for more examples. Not exactly a comparison but with that implication sounds right. Given that my two alternatives that I originally posed are probably too exact and that both shades of meaning may possibly be intended.Markos wrote:When I read the phrase I was reminded of--I am reminded of-- Romans 16:7
On the one hand, there is nothing inherently comparative about the phrase here. It just means "eminent among the apostles." But there is a hint of comparison. Standing out among the apostles, Andronicus and Junia are more prominent than some--not by any means the most eminent--but not just your average, everyday apostles. As always, context is everything. If your boss tells you, "you shine among your co-workers," it does not necessarily mean that you are better than the other workers, but that is among the implications. Same thing here in both Paul and Rico's phrases.Romans 16:7: ἀσπάσασθε Ἀνδρόνικον καὶ Ἰουνιᾶν τοὺς συγγενεῖς μου καὶ συναιχμαλώτους μου, οἵτινές εἰσιν ἐπίσημοι ἐν τοῖς ἀποστόλοις, οἳ καὶ πρὸ ἐμοῦ γεγόνασιν ἐν Χριστῷ.
I would go so far as to say that ἐν plus the dative, if the context supports it, can be idiomatic for an implicit comparison. I'm pretty sure I have read more examples of this, but they would be hard to track down because ἐν is so common.
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Re: ἐν πάσαις ταῖς γλώσσαις Rico - comparison?
"In all the languages of the world Greek is difficult."
Evidently Roda's Greek is not as good as she thinks.
Evidently Roda's Greek is not as good as she thinks.
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Re: ἐν πάσαις ταῖς γλώσσαις Rico - comparison?
Markos wrote: I would go so far as to say that ἐν plus the dative, if the context supports it, can be idiomatic for an implicit comparison. I'm pretty sure I have read more examples of this, but they would be hard to track down because ἐν is so common.
I found another example in Gaza's Paraphrase of the Iliad 5:1:daivid wrote:I shall keep an eye out for more examples.
The meaning here lies somewhere between "prominent among all the Greeks" and "the most distinguished of all the Greeks."Gaza 5:1:
τότε δὴ Διομήδει τῷ υἱῷ τοῦ Τυδέως ἡ πολεμικὴ Ἀθηνᾶ ἐδωκε ἰσχὺν καὶ εὐτολμίαν, ὄπως διάδηλος ἐν πᾶσιν τοῖς Ἕλληνσι γένηται...
So, getting back to Rico's phrase, I think, yes, a superlative meaning is at the very least implied. We could always him, I guess.
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Re: ἐν πάσαις ταῖς γλώσσαις Ricco - comparison?
One more example can be found in Luke 1:42: Εὐλογημένη σὺ ἐν γυναξίν.Markos wrote:When I read the phrase I was reminded of--I am reminded of-- Romans 16:7
Romans 16:7: ἀσπάσασθε Ἀνδρόνικον καὶ Ἰουνιᾶν τοὺς συγγενεῖς μου καὶ συναιχμαλώτους μου, οἵτινές εἰσιν ἐπίσημοι ἐν τοῖς ἀποστόλοις, οἳ καὶ πρὸ ἐμοῦ γεγόνασιν ἐν Χριστῷ.
What does this phrase actually mean? Is Mary only one of the (most) blessed women or the most blessed woman?
Here's the Good News Bible translation: God has blessed you more than any other woman!
Is this translation correct (if we don't pay attention to the addition of "God")? Is it the only possible understanding?
By the way, does the preposition ἐν always indicate to belonging to a particular class of objects? I mean, according to the Greek text are Andronicus and Junia sure to be called both apostles?
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Re: ἐν πάσαις ταῖς γλώσσαις Rico - comparison?
There is also Matt. 22, 36 (quoted here on the Positive as Superlative)
On a side note, the Vulgate hasποία ἐντολὴ μεγάλη ἐν τῷ νόμῳ ;
while Castellion's classical Latin translation hasquod est mandatum magnum in lege?
quodnam praeceptum est in lege maximum?
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Re: ἐν πάσαις ταῖς γλώσσαις Rico - comparison?
The Modern Greek versions are split, with the ABS supporting the formerVladimir wrote:One more example can be found in Luke 1:42: Εὐλογημένη σὺ ἐν γυναξίν.
What does this phrase actually mean? Is Mary only one of the (most) blessed women or the most blessed woman?
and the TGV supporting the latterεὐλογημένη εἶσαι σὺ μεταξὺ τῶν γυναικῶν.
It's possible that the we have here a semitism, but the Hebrew versions are spit, with Delitzsch supporting the formerευλογημένη απ' το Θεό είσαι εσύ, περρισσότερο από όλες τις γυναίκες.
and Salkinson-Ginsburg supporting the latterבְּרוּכָה אַתְּ בְּנָּשִׁים
with only one letter (בַּ > מְ) separating the two.בְּרוּכָה אַתְּ מִנָּשִׁים
The was בְּ probably originally בַּיִת, so εὐλογημένη σὺ εἰς οἶκον γυναικῶν might capture the ambiguity.
No, interpreters are split on whether we have here ὁ Ἰουνιᾶς or ἡ Ἰουνία, and, if the latter, whether this meansVladimir wrote:Romans 16:7: ἀσπάσασθε Ἀνδρόνικον καὶ Ἰουνιᾶν τοὺς συγγενεῖς μου καὶ συναιχμαλώτους μου, οἵτινές εἰσιν ἐπίσημοι ἐν τοῖς ἀποστόλοις, οἳ καὶ πρὸ ἐμοῦ γεγόνασιν ἐν Χριστῷ.
By the way, does the preposition ἐν always indicate to belonging to a particular class of objects? I mean, according to the Greek text are Andronicus and Junia sure to be called both apostles?
orἈνδρόνικος καὶ Ἰουνία ἐπισήμοι ἀπόστολοί εἰσι.
My own view, which I admit is based more on theology than Greek, is that Μαρία εὐλογητάτη ἐστί and that τὴν Ἰουνίαν ἀπέστειλε Θεός.οἱ ἀπόστολοι γιγνώσκουσιν Ἀνδρόνικον καὶ Ἰουνίαν ὡς ἐπισήμους.
I think we have here a weird coincidence. ἐν CAN imply a superlative, and this passage DOES assert just that, but the ἐν here is probably locative. In Koine the simple adjective can function as a superlative on its own, so the superlative ἐν is not needed here. The context determines that.Shenoute wrote:There is also Matt. 22, 36 (quoted here on the Positive as Superlative)ποία ἐντολὴ μεγάλη ἐν τῷ νόμῳ ;