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About Sigma

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About Sigma

Postby Yhevhe » Sat Sep 02, 2006 10:41 pm

I haven't read anything about it, but isn't sigma supposed to be pronounced "sinma", or "sima"? After all, gamma before my becomes nasal.

Thanks. And... hello everybody :wink: It's been a time since I posted something here.
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Postby GlottalGreekGeek » Sat Sep 02, 2006 11:52 pm

Surely you mean "nu" instead of "my".

I do not know about the pronounciation of sigma.

And it's good to see you back :D
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Postby Bert » Sun Sep 03, 2006 1:24 am

GlottalGreekGeek wrote:Surely you mean "nu" instead of "my".


Probably Mu.

Gamma plus velar becomes Nu.
I had not heard that Gamma before Mu becomes nasal, but that does not mean that it is not true.
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Postby Yhevhe » Sun Sep 03, 2006 3:21 am

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Postby Bert » Sun Sep 03, 2006 4:23 am

Yhevhe wrote:
Bert wrote:Gamma plus velar becomes Nu.
I had not heard that Gamma before Mu becomes nasal, but that does not mean that it is not true.

The remaining consonants may be pronounced as specified in the list, but γ before μ, ν ,γ, χ or ξ is called gamma-nasal, and is pronounced as n in song, as κλαγγή uproar, pronounced clahngáy.

Well, I guess it is Gamma before velars and nasals. Thanks.
(I should have written "Gamma plus velar becomes nasal not Nu)
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Postby ThomasGR » Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:41 pm

It looks Pharr is totally wrong, at least as concerns γ before μ and ν. It is clearly a "g", and in Modern Greek became a voiced χ. Maybe this was also the case in Old Greek.
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Postby Yhevhe » Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:55 pm

I'm relying in Pharr only, that's why I wanted to ask :?
Last edited by Yhevhe on Sun Sep 03, 2006 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ThomasGR » Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:59 pm

That gives us reasons to be here and makes us proud. To correct wrong assumptions; by Pharr, Alen et al. Better rely on us-
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Postby annis » Sun Sep 03, 2006 2:46 pm

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Postby ThomasGR » Sun Sep 03, 2006 4:03 pm

I am curious to read those evidences, please quote them here, if it's possible. To me, it sounds absurb. Gamma before mu can stand only as gamma, or be redued to a double mu, than spoken as mu. N before M is unstable. In your examples, there we have a vowel between G and M, which became silent and G turned to M. Do not get confuse with γκ, γχ or γγ, this is a different case. In cases where G before M is a nasal NG (not many cases, I can think none at this moment), soon we saw a double M. In any case, σιγμα is pronounced sigma.
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Postby annis » Sun Sep 03, 2006 4:17 pm

ThomasGR wrote:I am curious to read those evidences, please quote them here, if it's possible. To me, it sounds absurb.


Yeah.

In a few minutes I will be leaving to attend that great Madison Tradition, "Taste of Madison" which I myself call "Taste of Pork on a Stick." So more evidence will have to wait until this evening.

However, I would take it as a great kindness if in that time you actually present the evidence for your case, with examples rather than assertion. I would also like to know how you account for the fact that the nasal sound in -γγ- ended up with the name ἄγμα.
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Re: About Sigma

Postby modus.irrealis » Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:08 pm

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Postby ThomasGR » Sun Sep 03, 2006 8:07 pm

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Postby modus.irrealis » Sun Sep 03, 2006 8:58 pm

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Postby ThomasGR » Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:00 pm

In the Greek Church and when reading the Bible (both Old and New testament), they kept ancient words and we can follow its pronunciation. GM stood always as GM.
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Postby IreneY » Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:10 pm

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Postby ThomasGR » Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:30 pm

συν+μαθητης =συμμαθητης never συνμαθητης
συν+μαχος=συμμαχος never συνμαχος

There are no words with NM.
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Postby modus.irrealis » Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:03 pm

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Postby IreneY » Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:08 pm

Let's try this: When the very few kids who were getting any kind of education were learning the letters of the Greek alphabet, how do you think they called σίγμα? :)
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Postby Kopio » Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:44 am

annis wrote:In a few minutes I will be leaving to attend that great Madison Tradition, "Taste of Madison" which I myself call "Taste of Pork on a Stick." So more evidence will have to wait until this evening.

Mmmmmmmmmm.......pork.....mmmmmmmmmmm.

But seriously folks! I learned sigma pronounced with the G sound. Although αγγελος was always pronounced angelos. Of course....I learned Koine first, so I might just be of no help at all.

Perhaps William, belly full of pork and pints, can shed some more light on this for us. :)
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Postby ThomasGR » Tue Sep 05, 2006 6:16 am

But that claim is that γμ was ngm, with the ng in sing.

How does it claim? It that was the case, than why did they not wrote nm, or even gm (so we can than quarrel if its even ngm)? I think n does not like to be place near plosives either. n+b gives mb and n+p makes it to mp, also n+k gives gk (the last g as ng, the others m are banalities m).
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Postby modus.irrealis » Tue Sep 05, 2006 6:57 am

ThomasGR wrote:How does it claim? It that was the case, than why did they not wrote nm, or even gm (so we can than quarrel if its even ngm)?


I'm confused now. Aren't we discussing γμ (your gm I guess), in relation to the pronunciation of the word σιγμα?
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Postby ThomasGR » Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:33 am

Of course we are still after σιγμα pronunciation. Slowly I am proving that σιγμα could never have been pronounced sinma, neither singma. N (as well NG) before M becomes M, so G before M stood always as G, otherwise they would have written it from earliest times as MM (simplified perhaps to M). I think a clue gives also gramma, which probably comes from grap(h)ma, but p(h) before m stands not.
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Postby Yhevhe » Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:45 pm

ThomasGR wrote:I think n does not like to be place near plosives either. n+b gives mb and n+p makes it to mp

That reminds me of this little rule in castillian saying that 'm' is to be written before 'p' and 'b'.
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Postby modus.irrealis » Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:54 pm

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Postby annis » Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:21 am

Kopio wrote:Mmmmmmmmmm.......pork.....mmmmmmmmmmm.


:)

Perhaps William, belly full of pork and pints, can shed some more light on this for us. :)


Well, I didn't see the need to repeat modus.irrealis' fine points.
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Postby ThomasGR » Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:49 am

N sure, but NG? Do you have any examples of that?

Do you have any example for the opposite?

I could go on and on proving that NM (and NGM) is simple un-Greek pronunciation. But not MN. Maybe it was always simna and people twisted it? :lol:
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Postby ThomasGR » Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:04 am

Why wouldn't it just stay as χ?

M is voiced, so χ has to become voiced. X turns to a voiced X, a G. This could give reasons to say that ancient-Greek's G was never that hard-sounding G as in Latin or English, but a soft one, a voiced X. There are words with χμ, but in this case we have also the ypsilon before, working as a voiced semi-vowel (or semi-consonant?).

Edit: this is also an excellent example why one should never reject Modern Greek so easily. Why we have here GM and not XM, is easy to think if we take modern pronunciation into account. In Modern Greek the pronunciation would be τεβγμα, so we speak βγμ, no place is left for χμ. Astrong clue that ancient υ was never a u, not in such combinations as in this example.
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Postby annis » Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:44 pm

ThomasGR wrote:I could go on and on proving that NM (and NGM) is simple un-Greek pronunciation.


You simply assert over and over that because it's not in modern Greek it's "un-Greek" tout court. This isn't proof.
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Postby annis » Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:53 pm

William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
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Postby ThomasGR » Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:34 pm

annis wrote:
ThomasGR wrote:I could go on and on proving that NM (and NGM) is simple un-Greek pronunciation.


You simply assert over and over that because it's not in modern Greek it's "un-Greek" tout court. This isn't proof.

I use examples only from Ancient Greek. There are no words with NM, and whenever a n+m occurs, suddenly we have MM. There is no GM tracing back to NM. NM (and NGM, not to forget it) is simple un-Greek. either you take it granted, or not.
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Postby ThomasGR » Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:35 pm

annis wrote:
ThomasGR wrote: You still haven't accounted for ἄγμα.

I leave it to you.
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Postby modus.irrealis » Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:46 pm

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Postby annis » Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:23 pm

William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Postby annis » Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:07 pm

William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Postby ThomasGR » Thu Sep 07, 2006 4:48 am

had a special name in Greek, and that this name was ἄγμα; since the Greek names of letters are otherwise related to the sounds they represent, such a name makes sense only if it is pronounced [aGma] ([aŋma]), that is, if the γ is pronounced [N] ([ŋ]) in the position before the nasal μ."

So the only clue we have is this: since it is called agma, so it had to be pronounce angma. I disagree, I'm not convinced. Do we have any mispelling for γμ (e.g. νμ, νγμ)? No, never was one. Priscian, as a genuine grammarian, wanted to remodel the langauge according to his ideal. Thanks God, it did never happen. I find it remarkable, there are other interesting mispellings even to our days: συνγνωμη versus συγγνωμη vs. συγνωμη.
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Postby ThomasGR » Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:35 am

Consonants: Attic Combinations:
Image
Image
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Postby annis » Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:37 pm

ThomasGR wrote:So the only clue we have is this: since it is called agma, so it had to be pronounce angma. I disagree, I'm not convinced.


What a shock.

And it is patently not the only clue we have — it's merely one of several, all of which work together nicely. Why must we do this absurd epistemology tango every time this subject comes up?

Have you read Allen's Vox Graeca? Do you have access to a copy? Would you read it if I arranged to have one get to you, if you haven't already? Or are all linguists and grammarians, like Cretans, liars to you?
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Postby annis » Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:38 pm

ThomasGR wrote:Consonants: Attic Combinations:


Blogger denies me access to these images.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
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Postby IreneY » Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:45 pm

Annis try copying their url from the Properties and then open them in a new window/tab. I did it and then for some reason they appeared on my textkit page too
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