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A.Ag Κασάνδρα scene 1072-1330

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Re: A.Ag Κασάνδρα scene 1072-1330

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:33 pm

Qimmik wrote:In line 1322, it should be ἤ instead of οὐ. Murray, Fraenkel, Denniston & Page, Page (OCT), West and Sommerstein (Loeb) all have ἤ with no indication of a variant reading.

I now see that Fraenkel in his commentary mentions that ἤ is a conjecture by Hermann, "adopted by Mazon among many others." (Murray in his apparatus notes this conjecture too.) Fraenkel rejects the conjecture as unnecessary, and so, apparently, do the other editors cited above.



I am having a hard time following this. If they all reject ἤ ... a conjecture by Hermann why do they all read ἤ in their text. Perhaps οὐ is the conjecture not ἤ. That would resolve the problem and makes sense out of the following paragraph.

Qimmik wrote:He also mentions that by adding ἐμὸν τὸν αὐτῆς "Cassandra points to the peculiarity of her situation, for it is in itself contrary to the nature of things that anyone should sing or speak his own dirge." That's the reason for the emphatic τὸν αὐτῆς after ἐμὸν, and that reinforces ἤ as the correct reading: she's going to make a last speech, or rather sing a dirge--her very own, for herself. It doesn't make much sense for her to say she's going to make a final speech but not her very own dirge. The pathos lies precisely in the fact that she knows beforehand exactly what's coming--her speech will be her very own dirge.


I have noticed in translations for reading pleasure and easy comprehension, textual problems like this are sometimes solved by just ignoring the particle altogether:

One thing left.
I want to sing my own dirge.
— Ann Carson

I'd like a few more words, a kind of dirge,
it is my own.
— R. Fagles
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Re: A.Ag Κασάνδρα scene 1072-1330

Postby Paul Derouda » Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:49 pm

C. S. Bartholomew wrote:
Qimmik wrote:In line 1322, it should be ἤ instead of οὐ. Murray, Fraenkel, Denniston & Page, Page (OCT), West and Sommerstein (Loeb) all have ἤ with no indication of a variant reading.

I now see that Fraenkel in his commentary mentions that ἤ is a conjecture by Hermann, "adopted by Mazon among many others." (Murray in his apparatus notes this conjecture too.) Fraenkel rejects the conjecture as unnecessary, and so, apparently, do the other editors cited above.



I am having a hard time following this. If they all reject ἤ ... a conjecture by Hermann why do they all read ἤ in their text. Perhaps οὐ is the conjecture not ἤ. That would resolve the problem and makes sense out of the following paragraph.

οὐ is the conjecture - Qimmik probably made a little typo.
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Re: A.Ag Κασάνδρα scene 1072-1330

Postby Qimmik » Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:59 pm

Paul is right. You're having a hard time following my comment because I erroneously wrote that ἤ is a conjecture by Hermann. I meant to write that οὐ is a conjecture by Hermann. Sorry for the confusion.

As I noted in a different post, I'm font-challenged. I only know how to put Greek into the text of my comments by copying a word from somewhere else. In this case I copied and pasted the wrong word. I went back and corrected my previous post to avoid confusing anyone else.
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Re: A.Ag Κασάνδρα scene 1072-1330

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:18 pm

Paul Derouda wrote:οὐ is the conjecture ...


Thanks Paul,
Wish I had Frankel, West, et al. James Hogan actually mentions it but his notes are all English so I don't often look there.

At 1324 Just as the text is falling apart
ἡλίῳ δ’ ἐπεύχομαι
πρὸς ὕστατον φῶς

I was looking to find someone who translated ὕστατον φῶς "last light" and T. Hughes, R. Fagles, D. Grene-W. O'Flaherty did, more or less, where C. Collard reads: "I pray to the last daylight from the sun ..."

Translations are commentaries of the most direct sort. Does anyone know if Ted Hughes actually worked with the Greek text? What I could find about him indicated he was a famous poet. {update} I just found someone who is a Ted Hughes aficionado claiming he worked from the original languages. His renderings are very free, the ones I have looked at.
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Re: A.Ag Κασάνδρα scene 1072-1330

Postby mwh » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:47 pm

This discussion may be dead, so I'll just offer a few quick comments on various places.

1075 toioutos wste inf. is unexceptional (such a person as to, the sort of person to, toiout- frequently followed by consec. wste+inf., perfectly regular). LSJ just quote the earliest ex.

1078 proterois epomena tad' efhmisw.
proterois epomena is predicative, lit. this you uttered concordant with the previous (utterances). sofon eme poieis, you're making me smart; sofon touto fhs, you say this smart (i.e. that's a smart thing to say, what you're saying is smart); epomena tade fhs, you say this consistent, i.e. what you're saying is consistent. Predicative adjectives in oblique cases can be tricky to translate, but the greek construction is perfectly regular.

1098 h mhn. Textual question, I'd side with West.

1131 proseikazw. I liken this to something bad. When anything is like something (arch. like to something), similar to something, the something is dative. Goes for adjj, advv, verbs, whatever. Why is a legitimate (but not difficult) question, but the fact that this is a compound verb is irrelevant.

Secret History I would not recommend, literally sophomoric. (With apologies if you're sophomores.)

1159 talain'. Yes its reference goes beyond this particular sentence to her present condition, or conveying her state of mind. An interjected woe is me exclamation. Natural enough after those iw's.

1173 ἑπόμενα προτέροισι τάδ’ ἐφημίσω.
epomena proteroisi is predicative, lit. this you uttered consonant with the previous (utterances). sofon eme poieis you're making me smart; sofon touto fhs you say this smart i.e. that's a smart thing to say, what you're saying is smart; epomena tad' efhmisw you said this consistent, what you're saying is consistent. Predicative adjj. in oblique cases can be difficult to translate but the greek is perfectly regular. The need for a relative comes only when you're trying to translate to english. Important thing is to get comfortable with the greek syntax.
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