Phonetic spelling of greek words...

[ClassicsNerd]

Is anyone aware of a website (or a book) that, like this one, gives phonetic spelling of greek words?

[Lucus Eques]

What I can tell you about the site is that it provides the Modern Greek pronunciations, which are vastly different from the pronunciation scheme handed down to us through Ancient Greek into Latin, through French, and to our own tongue, and equally different from the Ancient Greek that is, in my humble opinion, much more interesting for study.

[PeterD]

... which are vastly different from the pronunciation scheme handed down to us through Ancient Greek into Latin, through French, and to our own tongue...

You don't have a clue what as to what you are talking about, do you?

The Ancient Greeks regarded Latin---ESPECIALLY PRONUNCIATION---with unmitigated contempt---and, I dare say, would be equally, if not more, discombobulated with French and what you call "our own tongue."

... in my humble opinion...

Yes, the key word is "humble."

[annis]

You don't have a clue what as to what you are talking about, do you?

Peter, if you're going to insult people, at least address the main question.

[annis]

Is anyone aware of a website (or a book) that, like this one, gives phonetic spelling of greek words?

Do you want to see the classical pronunciation, or just a guide to how their usually pronounced in English? The one at your link is for Modern Greek.

[ClassicsNerd]

Is anyone aware of a website (or a book) that, like this one, gives phonetic spelling of greek words?

Do you want to see the classical pronunciation, or just a guide to how their usually pronounced in English? The one at your link is for Modern Greek.

The classical pronunciation, I think.

Grammar books--at least the ones i've looked at--only give pronunciation for specific letters, not specific words. Seeing how specific words are pronounced properly, I think, would make learning the language easier.

[PeterD]

Peter, if you're going to insult people, at least address the main question.

Please, Annis, I did not insult Lucus. I simply stated that he did not know what he was talking about. To state that the pronunciation of Ancient Greek was somehow passed down to Latin, then French, and "to our tongue" is not only false but deliberately false because Lucus should know better. What does Greek pronunciation have to do with Latin? French? "Our tongue?" The Greeks had no respect for Latin, and they ridiculed those Romans who mispronounced Greek by applying their Latin pronunciation.

What was insulting (and arrogant), though, was Lucus' flippant dismissal of Modern Greek as if it were some sort of debased language, having just a tenuous connection to Ancient Greek. Enough of that. Seriously, you'd think, after reading Lucus' post, that American English has more in common with Ancient Greek than the language spoken today---by Greeks!---in Greece. Don't you think that's insulting, Annis?

Now, what was the question?

[annis]

To state that the pronunciation of Ancient Greek was somehow passed down to Latin, then French, and "to our tongue" is not only false

Indeed it is. But that's not what he said.

[annis]

Seeing how specific words are pronounced properly, I think, would make learning the language easier.

This is probably the best available online right now: The Pronunciation of Ancient Greek, and it uses sound samples, rather than a transcription.

[Lucus Eques]

Phew, I didn't realize our friend Peter had so many hot buttons and all of them easily pushed! Just kidding around, Peter; clearly you're offended; I can't help but laugh it off. But, indeed, you did not understand me — which happens in this fast pace life we lead, so little time to read and so eager to push on to the next thing — yet, I will call upon your patience a bit longer.

For one, it's utterly unproductive to ridicule Latin and cut it from the equation, especially when Latinists are often the ones preserving the Greek language as well, taking after the Roman antecedents. And by that chord do we recognize that these two languages are intrinsically bound together, by fate and by common history, by shared grammar, by territory. To reject Latin and to extoll Greek, or vice versa, is the definition of ignorance — but perhaps I was reading too much into your Ῥωμανοφοβία.

To the point of dispute, which was my simply formed but not unclear comment, let us explicate it some:

What I can tell you about the site is that it provides the Modern Greek pronunciations, which are vastly different from the pronunciation scheme handed down to us through Ancient Greek into Latin, through French, and to our own tongue, and equally different from the Ancient Greek that is, in my humble opinion, much more interesting for study.

• The pronunciation of Modern Greek is vastly different from that of Ancient Greek.
• The pronunciation of Modern Greek is vastly different from our own pronunciations of Greek words.
- The pronunciation, and spelling of Greek in English is due to the Norman simplification of Latin translitteration and pronunciation.
- Latin had strict yet simple rules to pronunciation, and the foreign words it assimilated, on a common basis, were pronounced, perforce, according to those Latin rules — yet the educated would use the original Greek pronunciation and declensions within their Roman speech, since the two grammars are quite compatible.
• I think that the Ancient Greek pronunciation is much more interesting for study rather than the Modern one, when regarding the language as a whole, because the Modern Greek not only ignores ancient quantity, and uproots quality, focusing only on essential stress accent, but because it artificially lengthens those very many once short syllables, simply because they are accented. (Italian follows an earily similar rule with its lexicon.) This deception makes acquisition of the language more difficult, and comprehension of its ancient form either impossible, or bastardized, if you will forgive the strength of these words.

I like Modern Greek very much, by the way.

I don't understand the " 'our own tongue' " scare quotes.

[IreneY]

• I think that the Ancient Greek pronunciation is much more interesting for study rather than the Modern one, when regarding the language as a whole, because the Modern Greek not only ignores ancient quantity, and uproots quality, focusing only on essential stress accent, but because it artificially lengthens those very many once short syllables, simply because they are accented. (Italian follows an earily similar rule with its lexicon.) This deception makes acquisition of the language more difficult, and comprehension of its ancient form either impossible, or bastardized, if you will forgive the strength of these words.

I like Modern Greek very much, by the way.

I can see these two 'paragraphs as mutually exclusive by the way

[Lucus Eques]

Wonderful avatar, Irene! Pinky and the Brain are the best! μάλιστα!

Well, not necessarily mututally exclusive at all. I love the sound of Modern Greek, and the language, the people; I took Modern Greek at Florence University, of all places, so that should show you my interest and appreciation. That Modern Greek should be distant and very different from the ancient form is not unique; I was alluding above to how Greece and Italy share an eerily similar history linguistically: Italian to Latin is quite as Modern Greek to Ancient Greek. Greek and Latin had a distinct difference between syllable length and syllable accent — this distinction was lost through to modern times. Now, the stressed syllables in the modern tongues are lengthened arbitrarily while all the rest are shortened. Besides that, pronunciation of vowels and consonants has morphed into the modern versions. And when a modern person pronounces the ancient language, it is by his modern language's rules.

The result of this is the less attractive Italian pronunciation of Latin and the less comprehensible Byzantine-Modern pronunciation of Ancient Greek.

Yet anyone here who knows me knows I love no language if I do not love Italian. And I love Latin. My relationship with η Ελλάδα has so far been much less involved — yet I like the language Old and New.

[IreneY]

Well we are getting off-topic here and I for one don't really feel compelled to either defend the way we pronounce our language today or its relation with its ancient form. In addition to all that I don't know Italian so I have to take your word on that part.

Just three quick notes: Arbitrarily? I have never looked into the linguistic rules that modern Greek follow but I am quite certain that there is a logic behind what we do. It would be pretty weird if all the languages in the world followed some rules and we didn't eh?

I said "mutually exclusive" because, by what you wrote, it seems as -for whatever reasons you believe are responsible for the differentiation in the Greek language- modern Greek only lost and is just the sad 'remains' so to speak of its ancient form.

Could you explain the "bastardised" comment? It is a rather strong word to use

[PeterD]

Here is another site, ClassicsNerd:

Ancient Greek Pronunciation

Lucus, Lucus, Lucus.

[mraig]

I find it really puzzling that what seem to be simple, uncontroversial statements by Lucus are being treated as if shocking or offensive.

As I understand it, he is simply saying:

(1) The way that we, in English, pronounce Greek loan-words has nothing to do with any actual Greek pronunciation, but is the result of a process of borrowing that took the words through Latin and (often), then French. This is inarguably true. When I say 'energy', 'apocalypse', 'dynamic' or 'Socrates' in English, my pronunciation, the correct English pronunciation, can only be explained by this set of changes.

(2) The pronunciation rules of modern Greek (which are represented on the website linked above) are demonstrably different from the rules of ancient Greek. This is inarguably true, but it doesn't involve any kind of value judgment, and it didn't sound to me like Lucus was calling either set of pronunciation rules 'better' in some kind of absolute sense. (His terms 'quantity' and 'quality' are used in their technical sense, describing vowel sound and duration)

(3) Anything written in ancient Greek, particularly poetry, was written based on the pronunciation rules of ancient Greek. If these same words are read using the pronunciation rules of modern Greek, the differences in these pronunciation rules will cause certain sound properties of the words to change, often making it impossible for certain metrical schemes to be appreciated as they were written. This is inarguably true. That's not to say that the pronunciation rules of ancient Greek are somehow 'better' than those of modern Greek, or that modern Greeks are somehow speaking a 'worse' or 'impoverished' language because they are using modern pronunciation rules, and I don't think a reasonable interpretation of Lucus's statements would lead anyone to understand that that's what he meant. Pronouncing ancient Greek with modern Greek pronunciation rules would be just as wrong as reading Beowulf or Chaucer using modern English pronunciation rules - and it would be just as wrong as trying to read modern Greek poetry with ancient Greek pronunciation rules.

So what's with all the hate?

[IreneY]

Hate? Hate??

No, really, hate??

[GlottalGreekGeek]

Hate? Hate??

Sometimes in colloquial English "hate" has a much weaker meaning than the standard language. I don't know if mraig is trying to use the informal (weaker) or formal (stronger) degree of hate, but I suspect he's using it informally in which case I would translate his statement as "Why are you becoming so excessively vehement over this?" Of course, I may be misreading which degree of "hate" mraig is using since I can't hear the tone of voice he's using, which is the main way of figuring out which degree is being used in everyday conversation. I myself never use the informal degree of 'hate', but that's my personality more than anything else. However, I am familiar with the informal use of the word, especially among people my age.

[Kopio]

I find it really puzzling that what seem to be simple, uncontroversial statements by Lucus are being treated as if shocking or offensive.

So what's with all the hate?

What I find funny is the fact that you've posted 107 times and have yet to have a good run in with PeterD!! Lucus (along with Paul) is one of his favorite moving targets....and I come in just a little behind Rhuiden....but I think I'm still pretty high up on the list.

The only thing is....we are all very fond of one another, we just have very strong opinions. Even if they are incorrect....right PeterD?