Vox Graeca

[Lucus Eques]

Χαί?ετε!

I am enjoying Vox Graeca by Allen, and an incredibly fascinating new concept was the thought that 'γ' before 'μ' actually became the velar nasal, as in the 'n' in anchor. I would love to believe this, but morbid curiosity drew me here anyway to quaere among learned folk on the subject.

Λουκᾶς

[mingshey]

[ThomasGR]

The main problem here is that "γ" was never that hard "g" as in Latin. So before "m" it may sounded like a prolonged "χ" or as you said like your "n". An example can also be "σ?γχ?ονος", where it is clearly a "n", but in this case we have a classical example how grammarians can distort the language (or its spelling) and create more mess.

[Lucus Eques]

That's fascinating, Mingshey; when I briefly studied Korean, I remember that aspect of the langauge.


"never that hard 'g' as in Latin"? I don't understand, gamma wasn't gamma? Naturally gamma represents the velar nasal before consonants: αγγελος, angelus. But otherwise I don't follow.

[annis]

"never that hard 'g' as in Latin"? I don't understand, gamma wasn't gamma?

ThomasGR believes he and Plato pronounce Greek the same, and gamma alone is a velar fricative rather than a stop.

[Lucus Eques]

Α! είσαι ελληνας, Θωμας?

[IreneY]

what has Thomas possibly being Έλληνας to do with him thinking that he and Plato pronouce the Greek language the same? As far as I am aware no Greek thinks that; just because we use the modern Greek accent when reading Ancient Greek it doesn't mean we don't know there's a difference.

I am not sure what Thomas means by gamma not sounding like the Latin g but in acient Greek it sounded like g in gallop. From the Hellenistic times and up to the last pre-christian centuries , the change that made it sound like it does today in Greek was completed.

hope that makes sense

[ThomasGR]

[annis]

Well, Plato spoke perhaps not exactly like me, but I am sure his utterance resembled more mine than this atrocity people love to call Erasmian pronunciation.

Well, no problem, then. Vox Graeca isn't about Erasmian.

[IreneY]

look, I have my 'issues' with the use of the erasmian accent (as we call it, I don't know if it' international term) but calling it atrocious is going a bit far I think (not to mention that it was, as the paper of the Byzantine scholars who first wrote their opinion about ancient Greek pronounciataion was, sth to study really, not to use).

On the other hand, we know for sure (I mean we can actually stake our hands, heads and other members of our choice) that i.e. ypsilon, and eta were NOT pronounced as iota. We can be SURE that, as all languages, Greek was, at its start as a language writen in an alphabetical way -boy! I don't make much sense do I?- writen phonetically.

As for the Alexandrian scholars, well, yes, it's true that you (and I and the whole world) can blame them for any number of things if we want to (I personally never quite understood the use of psili (smooth breathing?) for instance).
But why this conspiracy theory for gamma?[/i]

[annis]

Sorry, Irene, you've jumped into a long-running dispute between Thomas and myself about how students of classical Greek should pronounce it (for example, this post: Zeta pronounce). I agree with you about what we can know.

[IreneY]

whoops!
I think Thomas is mixing two different discussions into one: why (make it 'if' if you please and change the rest of the sentence where needed) people should use the Erasmian accent (as seen from a Greek point of view which is, of course, different), with how the ancient Greeks, at one time or another, were pronouncing their language.

[Lucus Eques]

Huh. Interesting 'zeta' thread.
Go Vox Graeca.

Anyway, Will, what do you think about gamma as a velar nasal before consonants?

[annis]

Anyway, Will, what do you think about gamma as a velar nasal before consonants?

There's nothing in Allen's account that makes me go squinty-eyed, so I accept γ = [N] before γκχ and μ.