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suffix -ides

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suffix -ides

Postby ThomasGR » Fri May 27, 2005 5:10 am

What's the etymology of the suffix -ides,
like in names e.g. Aristides, Archimides, Euclides, or even the Dorian Leonidas?

(I hope am correct saying -idas is another form of -ides...)
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Re: suffix -ides

Postby mingshey » Fri May 27, 2005 5:39 am

I don't know better than you do, but I guess it could be [face=SPIonic]ei)/doj[/face].

edit:
Well, but Smyth, 845 and Goodwin , 846 says its patronymic -da/-d.
Though I doubt [face=SPIonic])Arximh/dhj[/face](vaguely, a chief counselor :?: :?: :?: ) and [face=SPIonic])Euklei/dhj[/face](more vaguely, good collar-bones :?: :?: :?: ) are the case?
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Re: suffix -ides

Postby annis » Fri May 27, 2005 1:23 pm

mingshey wrote: [face=SPIonic])Euklei/dhj[/face](more vaguely, good collar-bones :?: :?: :?: )


Surely the root is related to [face=spionic]kle/oj, kle - id -[/face]
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about the suffix -ides

Postby ximo » Fri May 27, 2005 10:03 pm

The suffix -ides means "son or descendant of". So, for example in the Iliad Atreides "son of Atreus" is referred to Agamemnon, or Peleides "son of Peleus" to Achilles. But the suffix properly is only -ides/-idas in Doric. Some names as Archimedes have a different suffix, in this case related to the verb medomai "to care about".
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Postby ThomasGR » Sat May 28, 2005 8:40 am

Well that is what I thought always, that it comes from eidos, but than again I read all the time that the meaning is "son of", and this creates a confusion in me. The primary question is how -ides can be derived to mean "son of".
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Postby Paul » Sat May 28, 2005 2:19 pm

ThomasGR wrote:Well that is what I thought always, that it comes from eidos, but than again I read all the time that the meaning is "son of", and this creates a confusion in me. The primary question is how -ides can be derived to mean "son of".


The fundamental meaning of [face=SPIonic]ei)=doj[/face] is the 'look' of a thing, including one's bodily appearance.

Like father, like son.

Cordially,

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Postby annis » Sat May 28, 2005 10:02 pm

Is there any reason to believe the etymology of this derivational affix is recoverable?
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Re: suffix -ides

Postby annis » Tue May 31, 2005 12:55 am

I spent a little time looking for literature on this. I don't believe there is any agreement about how these endings come to mean "son of." But...

ThomasGR wrote:(I hope am correct saying -idas is another form of -ides...)


Yes.

We can say, though, that the [face=spionic]-idhj[/face] ending is secondary, and the original is simply [face=spionic]-dhj[/face]. No relationship to [face=spionic]ei)=doj[/face] is possible.
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Re: suffix -ides

Postby Paul » Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:59 pm

annis wrote:We can say, though, that the [face=spionic]-idhj[/face] ending is secondary, and the original is simply [face=spionic]-dhj[/face]. No relationship to [face=spionic]ei)=doj[/face] is possible.


I am always charmed by how a simple question about Greek morphology or syntax can lead to such interesting discoveries. So, thank you ThomasGR. :)

Now, I never said that the suffix [face=SPIonic]-idhj[/face] was derived from [face=SPIonic]ei)=doj[/face]. All I meant to suggest was that if it were so derived, the semantic connection between 'look, appearance' and 'son of' was obvious.

My own research reveals the following. It is the general consensus among Greek scholars that the patronymic suffix [face=SPIonic]-idaj, -idhj[/face] consists of two suffixes: [face=SPIonic]-id-[/face] , believed to be pre-Greek, and [face=SPIonic]-aj[/face], of murkier origins but known to denote male persons.

Recent work, framed by the question 'how does x-[face=SPIonic]idaj[/face] come to mean "son of x"'?, has further developed these ideas.

It says that [face=SPIonic]-id-[/face] denotes a clan or family name. This name can indicate not only a group of people, but also the land they inhabit.

(Digression: an interesting semantic parallel can be found in the Mycenaean da-mo = [face=SPIonic]da=moj[/face] whence [face=SPIonic]dh=moj[/face]. This word means both a land and its people. It comes from [face=SPIonic]dai/omai[/face] which means 'to divide for the purpose of distributing, sharing'. cf. Palmer, "The Interpretation of Mycenaean Greek Texts")

x[face=SPIonic]-id-[/face], where 'x' is a personal name, can mean two things:

1. land/tribe
2. a female person of land/tribe

[face=SPIonic]-a-[/face] may be added after this suffix to indicate a male member of the tribe. And so we have:

x[face=SPIonic]-id-a[/face] meaning the male member of a land/tribe.

Apparently, suffixes often undergo a kind of semantic narrowing. The meaning of [face=SPIonic]-idaj[/face] has moved from 'man of clan x', to 'descendant of x', and finally to 'son of x'.

Cordially,

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Re: suffix -ides

Postby annis » Thu Jun 02, 2005 10:36 pm

Paul wrote:It is the general consensus among Greek scholars that the patronymic suffix [face=SPIonic]-idaj, -idhj[/face] consists of two suffixes: [face=SPIonic]-id-[/face] , believed to be pre-Greek, and [face=SPIonic]-aj[/face], of murkier origins but known to denote male persons.

Recent work, framed by the question 'how does x-[face=SPIonic]idaj[/face] come to mean "son of x"'?, has further developed these ideas.

It says that [face=SPIonic]-id-[/face] denotes a clan or family name. This name can indicate not only a group of people, but also the land they inhabit.


Huh. What are the sources you're using? I first checked Smyth, and then saw a paper on dental stems in Greek via JSTOR (which I cannot now reach). Neither is terribly modern, but I remain a little suspicious of [face=spionic]-id-[/face] being primary, since there are also of patronymics in [face=spionic]-adhj[/face] or even just [face=spionic]-dhj[/face].

Having -da- primary seems the more parsimonious etymology. But I need to see what you've been reading. :)
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Postby ThomasGR » Fri Jun 03, 2005 3:57 pm

Paul's post made me think. We have also the archaic form δη (dh) for earth, like in goddess Demetra, and amybe it was also used as a suffix -δη to denote some one coming from a specific land, like in English -lander (Finlander). I wonder if -δης can have something to do with δη (earth).
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Postby Paul » Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:37 pm

ThomasGR wrote:Paul's post made me think. We have also the archaic form δη (dh) for earth, like in goddess Demetra, and amybe it was also used as a suffix -δη to denote some one coming from a specific land, like in English -lander (Finlander). I wonder if -δης can have something to do with δη (earth).


I was thinking along the same lines. My thoughts about this etymology are split between [face=SPIonic]-da-[/face] and [face=SPIonic]-id-[/face] (as discussed above).

As you rightly say, [face=SPIonic]-da-[/face] contributes to Demeter (Da-Mater). It is also a suffix in Poseidon (Posei-Das, 'master of the earth').

But if we assert this [face=SPIonic]-da-[/face] as the element that participates in patronymic suffixes, then we must argue against considerable scholarship on the role of the suffix [face=SPIonic]-id-[/face]. A possible starting point for such an argument would be the significance of [face=SPIonic]da-[/face] in [face=SPIonic]da=moj[/face], i.e., that it means not just land but the clan or people of a land. We would, I suppose, have to account for a complex like [face=SPIonic]-i-daj[/face].

As for the suffix [face=SPIonic]-id-[/face], although the works I've consulted make no mention of its relationship to [face=SPIonic]i)/dioj[/face], I find it hard to believe that they are not related. The latter commonly means 'private, personal'. A more radical statement of its meaning is 'the peculiar quality or character that makes something different or unique'. These meanings seem to me to comport nicely with the sense of [face=SPIonic]-id-[/face] as denoting a clan or family.

Finally, I cannot resist again introducing [face=SPIonic]ei)=doj[/face] into the etymological murk. In his discussion of this word Chantraine points out a derivative [face=SPIonic]ei)diko/j[/face] which means 'special, specific' as opposed to 'general'. He relates this to [face=SPIonic]i)diko/j[/face] a derivative of [face=SPIonic]i)/dioj[/face]. [face=SPIonic]i)diko/j[/face] means 'specific character, particularity, individuality'. So....the argument goes like this:

a. the derivatives [face=SPIonic]i)diko/j[/face] and [face=SPIonic]ei)diko/j[/face] have nearly identical meanings
b. the parent word of one of these derivatives, [face=SPIonic]i)/dioj[/face], may be related to the same [face=SPIonic]-id-[/face] that means 'clan, family' and contributes to the patronymic suffix
c. therefore the other parent word, [face=SPIonic]ei)=doj[/face] might also be so related.

To answer Will's question, current thinking on the role of the [face=SPIonic]-id-[/face] suffix goes back to a 1975 work by a German named Meier. The latest work is that of Keurentjes writing in Mnemosyne, 1997.

Cordially,

Paul
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