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h&q Chapter 11 English to Greek

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h&q Chapter 11 English to Greek

Postby bingley » Mon Feb 07, 2005 5:32 am

Could someone look at these English to Greek sentences, please?
The topics of this unit are:
1. Imperatives
2. Deponents
3. [face=SPIonic]au)to/j [/face]
4. Temporal Clauses
5. Genitive Absolutes

1. You yourselves used to hear Demosthenes whenever he began a speech. Express the temporal clause in two ways.

[face=SPIonic]au)toi\ ga\r tou= Dhmosqe/nouj h)kou/ete e)pei\ logou= a)\caito.

au)toi\ ga\r tou= Dhmosqe/nouj logou= a)rxame/nou h)kou/ete.[/face]


2. After the poet is honoured by the noble young men, let the citizens sacrifice to all the muses. Express the temporal clause in two ways.

[face=SPIonic]e)peida\n o( poihth\j me\n u(po\ tw=n eu)genw=n neaniw=n tima=tai, oi( poli=tai de\ pa/saij tai=j Mou/saij qusa/tw.

tou= poihtou= me\n u(po\ tw=n eu)genw=n neaniw=n timhqe/ntoj, oi( poli=tai de\ pa/saij tai=j Mou/saij qusa/tw. [/face]


3. Whenever Demosthenes' father persuaded the people to guard against the enemy, he sacrificed to the gods of the city. Announce this to the citizens, young man. Express the temporal clause in two ways.

[face=SPIonic]e)peidh\ tou= Dhmosqe/nouj ge o( path\r to\n dh/mon tou\j pole/miouj fula/ttesqai pei/sai toi=j th=j po/lewj qeoi=j e)/que. w=) neani/a tou=to toi=j poli/taij a)ggei=lon.

tou= Dhmosqe/nouj ge o( path\r to\n dh/mon tou\j pole/miouj fula/ttesqai pei/saj toi=j th=j po/lewj qeoi=j e)/quse. w=) neani/a tou=to toi=j poli/taij a)ggei=lon. [/face]


4. How are we to guard against evil speakers and foolish poets who somehow persuade the young men to wrong their mothers and fathers? Express the relative clause in two ways

[face=SPIonic]pw=j mh\n tou\j kakou\j r(h/toraj kai\ tou\j a)/fronaj poihta\j ou(j pwj pei/qousin tou\j neani/aj tou\j au0tw=n pate/raj mhte/raj te a)dikei=n;

pw=j mh\n tou\j kakou\j r(h/toraj kai\ tou\j a)/fronaj poihta\j tou\j pwj pei/qontaj tou\j neani/aj tou\j au0tw=n pate/raj mhte/raj te a)dikei=n; [/face]


5. I, myself, you know, shall remain there in order that I may welcome the king himself in the same manner. Express the purpose in two ways.

[face=SPIonic]au)to/j toi e)ntau=qa menw= i(/na to\n basile/a au)ton e)n tw|= au)tw|= tro/pw|= de/cwmai.

au)to/j toi e)ntau=qa menw= to\n basile/a au)ton e)n tw|= au)tw|= tro/pw|= de/co/menoj. [/face]


6. If we ourselves should ever hit him with the same stones, he would not want to leave the gold in the market place.

[face=SPIonic]ei) de\ au)toi\ toi=j au)toi=j li/qoij au)ton ba/loimen, to\n xruso\n e)n th|= a)gora|= lipei=n a/)n ou) bouleu/shtai. [/face]
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Postby Skylax » Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:13 pm

Hello Bingley !
I am happy to see you here again. As usual, you did fine work, so only few remarks are needed. Here it is :

1. [face=SPIonic]a)/rcaito[/face] don’t forget the rho :) - [face=SPIonic]a)rxome/nou[/face] or [face=SPIonic]a)rcame/nou[/face]

2. [face=SPIonic]timhqe/ntoj[/face] : I would use a present participle [face=SPIonic]timwme/nou[/face] – « let sacrifice » : rather [face=SPIonic]qusa/ntwn[/face] 3rd plural aorist imperative active

3. [face=SPIonic]polemi/ouj[/face] is paroxyton in the accusative plural

4. The relative should be in the nominative as it is the subject of [face=SPIonic]pei/qousi[/face], thus [face=SPIonic]oi(/ pwj pei/qousi[/face] – « their » : I would use the reflexive pronoun [face=SPIonic]au(tw=n[/face]

5. « in the same manner » : I think [face=SPIonic]e)n[/face] is superfluous. – There are too many accents on certain words…

6. [face=SPIonic]bouleu/shtai[/face] is aorist subjunctive middle from [face=SPIonic]bouleu/omai[/face] « deliberate ». I think it should be present optative from [face=SPIonic]bou/lomai[/face], thus [face=SPIonic]bou/loito[/face] or, if you want an aorist, [face=SPIonic]boulhqei/h[/face] (a passive form according to the principal parts).
[face=SPIonic][/face]
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Postby bingley » Fri Feb 11, 2005 4:46 am

Thanks for your corrections, Skylax.

Yes, I tend to drop r's in Indonesian spelling as well. It's the curse of speaking a non-rhotic form of English.

Could you explain why you would prefer [face=SPIonic]timwme/nou [/face]to [face=SpIonic]timhqe/ntoj [/face]? Doesn't the honouring take place before the sacrificing? I must admit to some confusion about what is paramount with participles, tense or aspect. If tense and aspect conflict (e.g., a repeated action before the action of the main verb) what do you do?

The extra accents were because I inserted my own corrections without deleting the errors.
:roll:


My eye slipped a line in the list of principal parts. :(
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Postby Skylax » Fri Feb 11, 2005 10:09 am

bingley wrote:
Could you explain why you would prefer [face=SPIonic]timwme/nou [/face]to [face=SpIonic]timhqe/ntoj [/face]? Doesn't the honouring take place before the sacrificing? I must admit to some confusion about what is paramount with participles, tense or aspect. If tense and aspect conflict (e.g., a repeated action before the action of the main verb) what do you do?



Well, I am not necessarily right with the present participle. Maybe I did not understand properly the meaning in English. Indeed, I assumed that "honour" denoted a general attitude towards the poet. Now, if [face=SPIonic]tima/w[/face] means "bestow honours" or somehow "reward", the aorist is more appropriate, denoting a single action that happened before the main verb.

In general, I must admit that I have always had to cope with somewhat conflicting grammatical conceptions about tense and aspect in the participle. Maybe we cannot know anymore exactly what the Greek meant.
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Postby bingley » Fri Feb 11, 2005 12:48 pm

Yes, since the English says "After the poet is honoured", I assumed that it meant 'honours are bestowed on the poet' rather than 'the noble young men feel the poet is deserving of respect'.
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Postby Skylax » Fri Feb 11, 2005 2:03 pm

I think the "is honoured" confused me under influence of French, because it sounds like a present to me. I would "have expected" :? something like "After the poet has been honoured".
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Postby bingley » Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:07 am

I think using the present perfect in such a time clause in English is a matter of emphasising the connection between the first event having been completed and the second event occurring while the present simple just says the earlier event occurs first. The objective reality of the events remains the same whether you use the present simple or the present perfect. In a recipe, for example:

After the butter has melted, add the chopped shallots.

After the butter melts, add the chopped shallots.

The first sentence emphasises that the butter has to melt before you add the shallots. In either case though, butter melting comes first and then in go the shallots.
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Postby Skylax » Sat Feb 12, 2005 8:47 pm

Ah, thank you, Bingley :) It is the kind of information I need so much 8) (although the doctor won't let me eat butter :wink: )
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Postby bingley » Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:18 am

I'm sure the recipe works just as well with margarine. :mrgreen:
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