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Aoidoi - Haiku

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Aoidoi - Haiku

Postby Kasper » Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:16 am

After looking around on Will's website for a while I saw this haiku page. It seemed really interesting and I thought I'd give it a shot. The problem is I'm not too sure on my scansion. Since nothing teaches a lesson like public ridicule I thought I'd just post what I've come up with and let you guys walz over me. I've attempted to stick to this meter:


- u u - -
- - u u - u -
- u u - -

Ergo:

h)/lqe de\ u(/dwr
h( gh~ katapo/tnizei
kai\ me\n a)/nhcei

I must say I like how the first line is in the past, second in the present and the third in the future, plus the doubt that could be put on the subject of the 3rd line, i.e. the water or the earth.
However, I'm particularly nervous about the "u" in "Udwr" being long, although I think I have seen this somewhere, and the "i" in "katapotnIzei" being short, because I fear the zeta might count as double, which I think would make the iota long...

anyway: a)/gete kri/nete!
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
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Postby chad » Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:11 am

hi kasper, that reminds me of the anacreontic :)

http://www.aoidoi.org/texts/anacreon/anea-21.php

someone will be able to give you better comments, but... i've only seen u(/dwr with short upsilon, maybe change de\ to me\n?, kataponti/zei (and iota is long here), maybe you could work au)= into the start of the last line and leave out the me/n, changing it around a bit? it's a very nice image :) :)
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Postby Kasper » Thu Feb 03, 2005 10:16 pm

Thanks Chad! I've never seen me\n first, before de\, I thought they pretty much always went together? How could I put it in the first line, and how would that make the upsilon long?

by the way, I had a look at the iliad, and in lines 13 and 15 of book 1 the upsilon is scanned as long - right?

as for the iota - its back to the drawing board....
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
Kasper
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Location: Melbourne

Re: Aoidoi - Haiku

Postby annis » Thu Feb 03, 2005 10:42 pm

Kasper wrote:After looking around on Will's website for a while I saw this haiku page.


People do read that! Amazing.

h)/lqe de\ u(/dwr
h( gh~ katapo/tnizei
kai\ me\n a)/nhcei


There are a few difficulties here, some of which you already identified. Zeta does close a syllable, and the length of the upsilon of [face=spionic]u(/dwr[/face].

There are three other things I'd change here.

First, [face=spionic]de/[/face] unelided before a word starting with a vowel is not so good. In prose we don't bother to write elisions, but they were probably there. In verse, we have to write them. So that eats up one syllable.

You should take Chad's suggestion, and change [face=spionic]de/[/face] to [face=spionic]me/n[/face] if you want both of them in the poem. Or, since it's at the start, I might go with something like this (assuming I'm interpreting the poem's razo correctly): [face=spionic]h)=lqe to\ ku=ma[/face]. Of course, this requires we take each line by the line, and allow ourselves the license of brevis in longa. Since we're inventing it, why not? :)

Second (and ignoring the scanning for the moment) I think there's a transitivity problem with [face=spionic]kataponti/zw[/face]. Based on L&S I'm inclined to take this verb to be transitive, and so [face=spionic]h( gh= k.[/face] would mean that the earth is drowning something, not that it is being drowned. I would either change the case of [face=spionic]gh=[/face] to accusative, or make the verb passive. Say, [face=spionic]th\n gh=n katapo/ntisan[/face] (aor. part., fixes scanning, but [face=spionic]kataponti/zwn[/face] keeps the syllable count).

Finally, it's a bit of a surprise to find [face=spionic]me/n[/face] last.

EDIT: *sigh* agreement problem fixed
Last edited by annis on Fri Feb 04, 2005 3:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Postby Kasper » Thu Feb 03, 2005 11:36 pm

Thanks Will! This is a bloody difficult puzzle!! anyway, after some amendments, how about:


h)=lqe me\n ku=ma
- u u - -
th\n gh\n katalamba/nwn
- - u u - u -
kau)t) a)n a)nh)/cei
- u u - -


can i get away with kai auth elided as it is (or as I think it is)?
I thought the participle would be better than all the active verbs...

the reason I would still have liked to use udwr is that, despite obvious appearance, this is not inspired by the tsunami, but by the recent weather in Melbourne - most rain in a day on record, we are relatively flooded.
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
Kasper
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Location: Melbourne

Postby annis » Fri Feb 04, 2005 12:30 am

Kasper wrote:Thanks Will! This is a bloody difficult puzzle!!


It can be. :)

h)=lqe me\n ku=ma
- u u - -


Since [face=spionic]me\n[/face] is a closed syllable here, it scans long.

kau)t) a)n a)nh)/cei
- u u - -

can i get away with kai auth elided as it is (or as I think it is)?


The crasis I believe is fine, but not the loss of eta that way. In epic, elegy and very rarely choral verse a final long vowel or diphthong may be scanned short if it is followed immediately by another vowel. But you can't elide it away.

the reason I would still have liked to use udwr is that, despite obvious appearance, this is not inspired by the tsunami, but by the recent weather in Melbourne - most rain in a day on record, we are relatively flooded.


I wasn't sure about that.

Maybe could try to work in some form of (all upsilons long for this root) [face=spionic]u(/etoj, ou, o([/face] "rain," [face=spionic]u(/w[/face] "to rain," [face=spionic]u(/omai[/face] "get rained on." Woodhouse may have some more choices, too.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Postby Kasper » Fri Feb 04, 2005 12:55 am

Thanks again Will :lol:

annis wrote:
Since me\n is a closed syllable here, it scans long.


The crasis I believe is fine, but not the loss of eta that way. In epic, elegy and very rarely choral verse a final long vowel or diphthong may be scanned short if it is followed immediately by another vowel. But you can't elide it away.



well, then if I change me\n to de\, and take out the a)n in the last line, that should do it:

h)=lqe de\ ku=ma
th\n gh\n katalamba/nwn
kau)th\ a)/nh)cei


(I'll just pretend it's tsunami related and start a new one :wink: - don't worry, I won't keep on bothering you with this!)
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
Kasper
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Location: Melbourne

Postby annis » Fri Feb 04, 2005 3:18 am

Kasper wrote:well, then if I change me\n to de\, and take out the a)n in the last line, that should do it:

h)=lqe de\ ku=ma
th\n gh\n katalamba/nwn
kau)th\ a)/nh)cei


That does it, indeed (now, is that an H)= indeed, or a MH/N indeed, or a GE indeed or an A)/RA indeed...)

There are a few poems we have that have the first clause starting off with [face=spionic]de/[/face] and this sometimes makes critics think we're missing part of the poem. But it might not mean that - I incline to the view that it does not necessarily - so I'm not going to complain about it here.

(I'll just pretend it's tsunami related and start a new one :wink: - don't worry, I won't keep on bothering you with this!)


Don't worry about bothering me. When I get bothered I'll let someone else answer. Just keep in mind that a delay in answering might represent frantic research. :)
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Postby Kasper » Fri Feb 04, 2005 3:31 am

succes!! (albeit moderate)

annis wrote: That does it, indeed (now, is that an H)= indeed, or a MH/N indeed, or a GE indeed or an A)/RA indeed...)


again I must request an explanation... I'm unaware of the potential classifications of 'indeed'.
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
Kasper
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Posts: 799
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 3:01 am
Location: Melbourne

Postby annis » Fri Feb 04, 2005 3:36 am

Kasper wrote:again I must request an explanation... I'm unaware of the potential classifications of 'indeed'.


Sorry, I was being sarcastic without letting anyone else in on the context. I've been thinking about certain particles recently. A whole mass of them get a list of meanings, and "indeed" and "truly" seem to figure prominently in those lists. This annoys me.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
annis
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Postby Kasper » Mon Feb 07, 2005 3:02 am

Let me know if this gets annoying, but how about this one:


h)~ros i)o/ntos,
ˉ ˘ ˘ ˉ ˉ
ne/ous me\n a)lwme/nas
˘ ˉ ˘ ˘ ˉ ˘ ˉ
nu~n de\ me/nein dei~.
ˉ ˘ ˘ ˉ ˉ

I'm intending me/ein to mean something like "stand on their own", not sure if this is the right word for it...
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
Kasper
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Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 3:01 am
Location: Melbourne

Postby chad » Mon Feb 07, 2005 5:29 am

hi kasper, i really like your poems, such nice images :)

i'm just not sure if you can use me/n and de/ like this, Will will be able to let you know... if i reword it to show how i read it:

h)~ros i)o/ntos (gen absolute), dei~ nu~n a)lwme/nas ne/ous me/nein.

you wanted to contrast the idea of straying/wandering girls in a)lwme/nas with standing firm in me/nein, is that right? i've only seen me/n and de/ used to contrast clauses, not particular words in 1 clause... maybe change me/n to pri\n as adverb, and change de\ to ge.
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Postby Kasper » Mon Feb 07, 2005 9:53 pm

chad wrote:i'm just not sure if you can use me/n and de/ like this, Will will be able to let you know... if i reword it to show how i read it:

h)~ros i)o/ntos (gen absolute), dei~ nu~n a)lwme/nas ne/ous me/nein.

you wanted to contrast the idea of straying/wandering girls in a)lwme/nas with standing firm in me/nein, is that right? i've only seen me/n and de/ used to contrast clauses, not particular words in 1 clause... maybe change me/n to pri\n as adverb, and change de\ to ge.


Thanks Chad! I'm very much a beginner at this and any help is much appreciated. About 'ge', I'm really unsure how to use this word, or its meaning... I used men and de to get the contrast of wandering to standing, would prin and ge give me this?

Apart from that, I suppose I should make 'ne/ous' into 'ne/as' or, alternatively, 'alwme/nas' into 'alwmenous'...
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
Kasper
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Postby annis » Tue Feb 08, 2005 2:03 am

Kasper wrote:Thanks Chad! I'm very much a beginner at this and any help is much appreciated. About 'ge', I'm really unsure how to use this word, or its meaning... I used men and de to get the contrast of wandering to standing, would prin and ge give me this?


I share Chad's concern about men..de.. in a single clause like that. You could use [face=spionic]pri/n[/face] in its original guise, an adverb "before, formerly", but you could also use [face=spionic]pote/[/face] (enclitic), which will elide and not mess up the meter.

[face=spionic]ge/[/face] is a selecting particle, and has the sense of "at least." I think it would work here pretty well.

It's hard in such tight spaces to produce Greekish Greek.

Soon you'll be producing runs of Aeolic lines. :)
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
annis
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Postby Kasper » Tue Feb 08, 2005 4:40 am

annis wrote:I share Chad's concern about men..de.. in a single clause like that. You could use [face=spionic]pri/n[/face] in its original guise, an adverb "before, formerly", but you could also use [face=spionic]pote/[/face] (enclitic), which will elide and not mess up the meter.

[face=spionic]ge/[/face] is a selecting particle, and has the sense of "at least." I think it would work here pretty well.

It's hard in such tight spaces to produce Greekish Greek.

Soon you'll be producing runs of Aeolic lines. :)


Thanks again Will! Pote is a great suggestion! My Greek may not (yet) be Greekish, but if these are all the comments you have for that one, plus Chad's compliment, I actually have the courage to post one last one :wink: :

nu/x a)pocwrw=n
ˉ ˘ ˘ ˉ ˉ
e)la/mpeto h(liw=|
˘ ˉ ˘ ˘ ˉ ˘ ˉ
h)=ri e)ruqrw=|
ˉ ˘ ˘ ˉ ˉ

No more!!
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
Kasper
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Location: Melbourne

Postby annis » Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:58 pm

Hiatus!
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
annis
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Postby annis » Wed Feb 09, 2005 4:53 am

So, I ran with the seasonal idea (my season this time), and the colon you're using for the middle line:

[face=spionic]o(rw=n nifo/en te/goj
pa/sxw nifa/daj kakw=j:
  a)ll' h)/luqon oi)ki/hn bebai/hn,
menw= de\ par' e(sti/h|
qermaino/menoj puri/
  oi)/nou te poth=ri toi=j q'   (Omh/rou.
[/face]


x - u u - u -
x - u u - u -
x - u u - u - u - -
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
annis
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Posts: 3397
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
Location: Madison, WI, USA


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