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about the pf. of ero^

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about the pf. of ero^

Postby Junya » Thu May 31, 2012 11:46 pm

Hi.

I have a question.
ero^ serves as the fut. of lego^ or phe^mi.
Then how should I understand the pf. form of ero^ ?
Does it mean "have said" ? or "will have said" ?
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Re: about the pf. of ero^

Postby spiphany » Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:48 am

This is one of those oddball verbs...
I think the best way to think about this is that one root is used for the future, and perfect forms, while the present and aorist are "missing" and supplied using another root.

λέγω = I say
ἐρῶ = I will say
εἶπον = I said
εἴρηκα = I have said

So the *meaning* of the verb isn't inherently future. (eg in contrast to something like ἔοικα where the form--past--and the meaning--present--don't match up)
IPHIGENIE: Kann uns zum Vaterland die Fremde werden?
ARKAS: Und dir ist fremd das Vaterland geworden.
IPHIGENIE: Das ist's, warum mein blutend Herz nicht heilt.
(Goethe, Iphigenie auf Tauris)
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Re: about the pf. of ero^

Postby Junya » Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:43 pm

I see. Thank you. :)


Is there a place where I can resort to in a grammar book when I met this kind of problem ?
I have Smyth and Goodwin, but you may not use them since you are German...
Then give me keywords for searching the grammar.
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Re: about the pf. of ero^

Postby spiphany » Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:17 am

I'm American, actually, although living in Germany. (It makes things interesting sometimes, because each country teaches classics a bit differently.) Almost everyone uses Smyth and the LSJ, though.

I don't know if there's an easy answer to your question. The phenomenon happening here is called "suppletion." Sometimes you'll see "defective verb" to describe verbs which don't have all principle parts.

I don't recall whether Smyth or Goodwin ever discuss this directly.
LSJ implies this information, but you have to know how to interpret it when they write:
"the place of the present εἴρω is supplied by φημί, λέγω or ἀγορεύω, and εἶπον serves as the aor."

Regarding weird verbs in general:
Smyth has a list of irregular verbs in the back of the book, I think, although it's cryptic as is usual for him. Can't give you a section number because my copy is across the Atlantic right now. There's probably something similar in Goodwin.

Kaegi's Greek Grammar (should be available via archive.org in English or German) also has an excellent table showing irregular verbs and their forms.
IPHIGENIE: Kann uns zum Vaterland die Fremde werden?
ARKAS: Und dir ist fremd das Vaterland geworden.
IPHIGENIE: Das ist's, warum mein blutend Herz nicht heilt.
(Goethe, Iphigenie auf Tauris)
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Re: about the pf. of ero^

Postby Junya » Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:15 pm

:) :) :)

you wrote :
Regarding weird verbs in general:
Smyth has a list of irregular verbs in the back of the book, I think, although it's cryptic as is usual for him. Can't give you a section number because my copy is across the Atlantic right now.



Thank you, for telling me when I should use that list in the back of Smyth and Goodwin.
To look at it, I suppose the place is where I should consult when I met with this kind of problem.


And thank you for your long letter. :)
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