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H & Q - Unit 2 - Page 60

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H & Q - Unit 2 - Page 60

Postby Matteos » Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:59 pm

Hi,

I'm not sure about the following:[face=Spionic]

ta\ bibli/a ta\ para\ tw=n ce/nwn e)pai/deue tou\s e)n th=| a)gora=| a)nqrw/pouj, tou\s (Omh/rou fi/louj.
[/face]

Is it "The books, the ones from the strangers, educated the men in the marketplace, the friends of Homer."


Thanks
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Postby chad » Tue Jul 20, 2004 12:14 am

hi Matteos, it looks right to me; it's just a strange sentence they've given you i think. :)
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Postby bingley » Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:36 am

Matteos, you'll get used to it. H&Q are the reigning champions of bizarre sentences for translation. Flick ahead and look at some of the English to Greek exercises and you'll get the flavour.
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Postby Matteos » Tue Jul 20, 2004 12:35 pm

Thanks...

I thought maybe [face=SpIonic]ta\ bibli/a[/face] was not the subject and that the subject was implied by [face=SpIonic]e)pai/deue [/face](he teaches, from the stranger's books, the men in the marketplace...)
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Postby Paul » Tue Jul 20, 2004 1:54 pm

Hi Matteos,

I agree with Chad and Bingley - it's a slightly bizarre sentence.

Specifically, I think they are using the second attributive position where the sequence is article, substantive, article, adjective (e.g., [face=SPIonic]o( a)/nqrwpoj o( a)gaqo\j [/face] = 'the good man').
But, instead of a simple adjective, they have instead used the preposition [face=SPIonic]para/[/face] and its object.

A more familiar presentation, using the first attributive position where the sequence is article, adjective, substantive, (e.g., [face=SPIonic]o( a)gaqo\j a)/nqrwpoj[/face]) would be:

[face=SPIonic]ta\ para\ tw=n ce/nwn bibli/a[/face]...

Cordially,

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Postby Matteos » Tue Jul 20, 2004 2:50 pm

So therefore[face=SpIonic] ta\ bibli/a ta\ para\ tw=n ze/nwn[/face] is one big direct object?

What is the subject of the sentence, the implied "He" of epaideue or "the books?"
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Postby Paul » Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:28 pm

Matteos wrote:So therefore[face=SpIonic] ta\ bibli/a ta\ para\ tw=n ze/nwn[/face] is one big direct object?

What is the subject of the sentence, the implied "He" of epaideue or "the books?"


That's a good question. At first I thought the sentence read: "The strangers' books were teaching the men in the marketplace, Homer's friends.". This translation would take [face=SPIonic]ta\ bibli/a[/face] to be the neuter plural subject of the singular verb [face=SPIonic]e)pai/deue[/face] - a very common construction.

But now I think it is also possible to translate, albeit awkwardly, as internal and external object. Consider a sentence like: "He taught them lessons.". In greek, both 'them' and 'lessons' would be in the accusative. "Them" is called the external object; "lessons" the internal object. This approach would yield something like:

"He was teaching the men in the market, Homer's friends, the books of strangers."

I think this maybe makes more sense than the first translation.

Cordially,

Paul
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Postby Matteos » Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:25 pm

"He taught them lessons.". In greek, both 'them' and 'lessons' would be in the accusative.

This is the double accusative for verbs which do Something to Someone, right?

Ok, it makes sense now. I'm movin' on...

Thanks for your input.


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Postby PeterD » Tue Jul 20, 2004 8:48 pm

Not so fast, Matteos. You are not moving on, yet.

I would like to take a different approach to your query.

Have you ever played strip poker? (Bear with me, moderators; I am not as perverted as you may think.)

If you have, then follow my logic here. Let's strip the sentence down to its bear necessities: subject + verb +/- direct object. In other words, we are going to remove all the modifiers. Therefore, we now have...

[face=SPIonic]ta\ bibli/a...e)pai/deue tou\j...a)nqrw/pouj,...[/face]

"The books (subject noun phrase) were educating (finite verb) the men (direct object noun phrase)."

Remember, Matteos, that neuter plural nouns take singular verbs!

Now, let's add some "clothing" to the sentence, i.e., the modifiers (underlined), to make it more meaningful.

[face=SPIonic]ta\ bibli/a ta\ para\ tw=n ce/nwn[/face]

-->Here we have an adjectival prepositional phrase in apposition (or in the 2nd attributive position, as Paul would say) modifying the subject. (Remember, in Greek the prepositional phrase, like in English, can also function as an adjectival modifier: The man in the brothel...)

[face=SPIonic]e)pai/deue[/face]

-->The finite verb of the sentence: 3rd person, singular (because the subject is neuter plural), imperfect, indicative, active.

[face=SPIonic]tou\j e)n th=| a)gora=| a)nqrw/pouj,[/face]

-->Here we have an adjectival prepositional phrase in attributive position (between the article and the noun) modifying the direct object.

[face=SPIonic]tou\j (Omh/rou fi/louj.[/face]

-->Here we have a noun phrase in apposition modifying [face=SPIonic]tou\j...a)nqrw/pouj[/face], i.e., the men (in the market place), the friends of Homer.

Make note, Matteos, that although the sentence comes across as inflated, Hanson is just trying to emphasize the material learned.

I hope this helps. If I really screwed up, I expect the Greek language police -- Paul, Chad and Annis -- to reprimand me forthwith!

Now, I shall leave you to translate the sentence in polished form.

As for me, I shall now click to the Open Board to take on the forces of evil, aka "the republicans." :twisted:

Sincerely,

PeterD
Last edited by PeterD on Wed Jul 21, 2004 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fanatical ranting is not just fine because it's eloquent. What if I ranted for the extermination of a people in an eloquent manner, would that make it fine? Rather, ranting, be it fanatical or otherwise, is fine if what is said is true and just. ---PeterD, in reply to IreneY and Annis
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Postby bingley » Wed Jul 21, 2004 5:21 am

I'm sure there's a master's if not a doctor's thesis in there somewhere:

Strip poker as a metaphor for Greek grammar in the early 21st century.
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Postby PeterD » Wed Jul 21, 2004 3:52 pm

bingley wrote:I'm sure there's a master's if not a doctor's thesis in there somewhere:

Strip poker as a metaphor for Greek grammar in the early 21st century.


If I may borrow from Bob Dylan, times, my dear bingley, they are a-changin'. :)

PeterD

P.S. Although I am a very good poker player, I have this uncanny ability to always lose at strip poker when I play in the company of girls.
Fanatical ranting is not just fine because it's eloquent. What if I ranted for the extermination of a people in an eloquent manner, would that make it fine? Rather, ranting, be it fanatical or otherwise, is fine if what is said is true and just. ---PeterD, in reply to IreneY and Annis
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Postby Paul » Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:45 pm

A fine analysis. Remind me never to play strip poker with you...sweetie.

My point was that another translation is quite possible.

PeterD wrote:I hope this helps. If I really screwed up, I expect the Greek language police -- Paul, Chad and Annis -- to reprimand me forthwith!


But I must take exception here. In the words of Sonny Barger, "I ain't no cop. I ain't never gonna be a cop."

Cordially,

Paul
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