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Xenophon Translation Question

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Xenophon Translation Question

Postby aprotosimaki » Sun Jun 15, 2003 3:57 pm

I am in the process of teaching myself ancient Greek. To that end I am translating Xenophon's Ways and Means. I think I understand the syntax of the following sentence but I am not totally sure. Part of my doubt is centred on the exceeding complexity of the syntactical rules that I am citing. To put it another way, I may be over thinking the sentence. Advice or feedback would be greatfully received. Anyway, here is the sentence (I-1 Ways and Means)<br />[face=SPIonic][size=18=18]<br />nomi/zwn, ei) tou=to ge/noito, a\(ma th=| peni/a| au)tw=n <br />e)pikekourh=sqai a)\n kai\ tw=| u(po/ptouj toi=j (/Ellhsin <br />ei)/nai<br />[/face][/size]<br /><br />[face=SPIonic][size=18=18] e)pikoure/w[/face][/size]: to aid, to keep it off from one, to acts as an ally<br /><br />Trans:<br />I believe, if this should occur (i.e. that the Athenians become self-sufficient), there would be a lessening in their level of poverty as well as a decrease in the suspicions that the Greek world has about them.<br /><br />The section I have had a particular problem with is:<br /><br />[face=SPIonic]tw=| u(po/ptouj toi=j (/Ellhsin ei)/nai[/face]<br /><br />I am taking this is an articular infinitive; dative because it is governed by the compound verb: [face=SPIonic] e)pikekourh=sqai[/face]<br /><br />The accusative plural [face=SPIonic]u(po/ptouj[/face] I explain by invoking the rule that articular infinitives use the accusative+infinitive construction. <br /><br />I explain [face=SPIonic] (/Ellhsin [/face] as a dative of possessor: i.e. the suspicions held by the Greeks<br /><br />Finally the whole clause is wrapped up in the apodosis of a Future Less Vivid in indirect discourse (thereby explaining the[face=SPIonic] a)/n [/face] that proceeds this clause).<br /><br />Seems alot of explanation for just one small part of one sentence! However, it is the only meaningful one that I can come up with (but I am careful to distinguish here between meaningfulness and truth). <br /><br />Thanks<br /><br />Aprotosimaki<br />
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Re:Xenophon Translation Question

Postby Skylax » Sun Jun 15, 2003 6:25 pm

[quote author=aprotosimaki]<br />I am taking this is an articular infinitive; dative because it is governed by the compound verb: e)pikekourh=sqai<br />
<br /><br />Indeed, but this dative (as well as th=| peni/a|) don't denote here the one who receives help (as in e)pikourei=n th=| patri/di "to bring help to the homeland") but the thing against what help is brought to somebody, as in e)pikourei=n tw=| limw=| "to bring help against starvation", "to protect (sb) from starvation". This use seems peculiar to Xenophon.<br /><br />[quote author=aprotosimaki]<br />I explain [face=SPIonic] (/Ellhsin [/face] as a dative of possessor: i.e. the suspicions held by the Greeks<br />
<br />It is more likely a dative after u(/poptoj "suspected by", "suspect to"<br /><br />All other explanations seems right to me.<br /><br />Regards,<br />Fernand
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Re:Xenophon Translation Question

Postby aprotosimaki » Mon Jun 16, 2003 1:40 pm

Fernand,<br /><br />Thanks for the analysis and comments. Your clarification on the meaning of "epikourew" is duly noted and has been added to word list. <br /><br />After some thought I too agree that "Hellesin" is in the dative because it is governed by "upoptous" rather than being a dative of possessor. I took "upoptous" as a substantive whereas it is clearly an adjective in aggreement with the accusative plural of Athenians (assumed). <br /><br />Thanks again for taking the time to look over my question,<br /><br />Aprotosimaki
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