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Use of the Greek word "and"

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Use of the Greek word "and"

Postby mickeyrory » Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:01 am

Keep in mind that I'm a novice. I would like to know a little about the Greek word "and" as it sometimes appears in the New Testament. Thayers Greek-English Lexicon mentions that the Greek word "and" is sometimes added to words designating the cause. I have found instances of that in parts of the N.T., for example, in Acts 10:29 the word "and" appears after the Greek word Strongs number 1223 and is translated "therefore." Obviously the Greek word for "and" is not translated, so what I would like to know is, what is the purpose for this? Does it always appear after the word it is added to or sometimes before; also,how is it recognized as serving the purpose that Thayers mentions? I'm considering a paricular verse, 1 John 2:20 "And you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things." Is the second instance of "and" in the verse designating the cause as in "you have an anointing...'therefore' you know all things."
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Re: Use of the Greek word "and"

Postby jaihare » Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:37 pm

mickeyrory wrote:Keep in mind that I'm a novice. I would like to know a little about the Greek word "and" as it sometimes appears in the New Testament. Thayers Greek-English Lexicon mentions that the Greek word "and" is sometimes added to words designating the cause. I have found instances of that in parts of the N.T., for example, in Acts 10:29 the word "and" appears after the Greek word Strongs number 1223 and is translated "therefore." Obviously the Greek word for "and" is not translated, so what I would like to know is, what is the purpose for this? Does it always appear after the word it is added to or sometimes before; also,how is it recognized as serving the purpose that Thayers mentions? I'm considering a paricular verse, 1 John 2:20 "And you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things." Is the second instance of "and" in the verse designating the cause as in "you have an anointing...'therefore' you know all things."


Are you saying that you cannot learn just one word in Greek? :shock:
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Re: Use of the Greek word "and"

Postby Kasper » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:04 pm

There are many words in greek that may be translated with the English 'and', and the appropriate translation will depend on the context (and the mood or convictions of the translator).

In any event, none of the greek words that may be translated as 'and' appear in 1 John 2 : 20 where you seek to place it. Neither is there a word for 'all things' in that verse. It says: καὶ ὑμεῖς χρίσμα ἔχετε ἀπὸ τοῦ ἁγίου: οἴδατε πάντες. i.e. "And you have an anointing from the holy [one]: [this] you all know".
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
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Re: Use of the Greek word "and"

Postby jaihare » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:14 pm

Kasper wrote:There are many words in greek that may be translated with the English 'and', and the appropriate translation will depend on the context (and the mood or convictions of the translator).

In any event, none of the greek words that may be translated as 'and' appear in 1 John 2 : 20 where you seek to place it. Neither is there a word for 'all things' in that verse. It says: καὶ ὑμεῖς χρίσμα ἔχετε ἀπὸ τοῦ ἁγίου: οἴδατε πάντες. i.e. "And you have an anointing from the holy [one]: [this] you all know".


:!:

United Bible Societies (4th ed.)
καὶ ὑμεῖς χρῖσμα ἔχετε ἀπὸ τοῦ ἁγίου καὶ οἴδατε πάντες.

Nestle-Aland Novum Testament Graece (27th ed.)
καὶ ὑμεῖς χρῖσμα ἔχετε ἀπὸ τοῦ ἁγίου καὶ οἴδατε πάντες.

Textus Receptus, Stephanus (1550)
καὶ ὑμεῖς χρῖσμα ἔχετε ἀπὸ τοῦ ἁγίου καὶ οἴδατε πάντα.

Westcott-Hort
καὶ ὑμεῖς χρῖσμα ἔχετε ἀπὸ τοῦ ἁγίου· οἴδατε πάντες.

What version were you using that didn't have the second καί in the text? Westcott-Hort? The TR, USB4 and NA27 all have the word καί, whereas WH doesn't. Is there a reason you quoted that text? Just curious.

The major division between the Alexandrian texts and the TR in this verse is in πάντα/πάντες - "you all know [this]" vs. "you know all things." That's a huge difference, but all of them have καί where the OP was asking.
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Re: Use of the Greek word "and"

Postby Kasper » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:34 pm

Oh, that's really interesting. I just plucked it from Perseus, so indeed Westcott-Hort. I had no particular reason or motivation for using that text.

It seems I must stand corrected that the text does appear to be exist using the text suggested by the OP. I was not aware that such significant variations existed in the text. Although I do not think that the word 'kai' is all that significant here. I read it as a straightforward 'and', not 'therefore'. But I am willing to again be corrected on this!
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
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Re: Use of the Greek word "and"

Postby mickeyrory » Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:26 am

Jaihare wrote, "Are you saying that you cannot learn just one word in Greek?"

I've read and re-read my post and I could not find anything in it that "says" I cannot learn one Greek word. Jaihare, hope you're not a teacher. I do appreciate those that try to help, as I said, I am a novice and one has to start somewhere.
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Re: Use of the Greek word "and"

Postby jaihare » Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:35 am

mickeyrory wrote:Jaihare wrote, "Are you saying that you cannot learn just one word in Greek?"

I've read and re-read my post and I could not find anything in it that "says" I cannot learn one Greek word. Jaihare, hope you're not a teacher. I do appreciate those that try to help, as I said, I am a novice and one has to start somewhere.


Then why don't you ask where to start instead of going about it this way? Everyone on this forum who is a regular here has learned either Greek or Latin or is in the process of doing such - and each one could open up his/her own experience and give you some pointers about where to start your study. It's very odd to start with a question about a single word like this.

I am a teacher, in fact. I don't see what this has to do with that. Do I have to treat everyone in the world as if he were my student? If a student came to me and asked me in Hebrew what "and" meant, I would not waste much time trying to explain the nuances of that one word without getting them started with some real learning. What an absurd notion! To come out saying that you know what "and" means!!! How odd indeed!

If you're interested in learning Greek, we'd all be happy to help. If you want the meaning of the word "and," I just find that weird.
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τοὺς θεοὺς εὔχομαί σοι διδόναι ὑγίειαν καὶ σωτηρίαν καὶ ἀγαθὰ πολλά.
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Re: Use of the Greek word "and"

Postby jaihare » Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:48 am

Serious steps into learning Greek:

(1) Throw away Strong's concordance with its numbers. This hampers serious learning of the language.

(2) Get yourself a basic grammar with exercises. You could go with Mounce's Basics of Biblical Greek for learning the Greek of the New Testament. You could go with any number of free resources provided on this website for learning ancient Greek (especially either Homeric or Attic) and transfer into reading the New Testament with ease.

(3) Get a hold of a good dictionary for the period of Greek that you're interested in. In the meantime, you could use Liddell-Scott-Jones (LSJ) as found online on the Perseus Project's website. When you get the money, you should purchase the BADG lexicon.

The only way to get to the meaning of small words like καί (and), δέ (and, but, now), ἀλλά (but), οὖν (therefore), γάρ (for), διότι (because), etc. will come most readily from exposure to Greek text, not from grasping for meaning from books like Strong's. Thayer's is pretty good, but until you learn some Greek you'll not have the base necessary to get into such minutiae.
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Re: Use of the Greek word "and"

Postby Kasper » Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:19 am

ἀγάπαζε σoν πλήσιον, Jaihare!

Although the OP describes himself as a novice, it does not mean that he has seen no grammar book other than Strong's, and has no understanding of greek at all. He may well have completed a grammar, and now seeks more knowledge of common words. This would not seem all that odd, to me.

Kasper
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
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Re: Use of the Greek word "and"

Postby jaihare » Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:26 am

Kasper wrote:ἀγάπαζε σoν πλήσιον, Jaihare!

Although the OP describes himself as a novice, it does not mean that he has seen no grammar book other than Strong's, and has no understanding of greek at all. He may well have completed a grammar, and now seeks more knowledge of common words. This would not seem all that odd, to me.

Kasper


Except that he referenced "Strong number 1223" as a Greek word instead of mentioning the Greek word itself. I think it's basically universally true that those who refer to numbers instead of words don't know the language that they're asking about.
Jason Hare
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Re: Use of the Greek word "and"

Postby jaihare » Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:39 am

Kasper wrote:ἀγάπαζε σoν πλήσιον, Jaihare!


Καὶ τίς ἐστίν μου πλησίον; (Luke 10:29) 8) :lol:
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Re: Use of the Greek word "and"

Postby mickeyrory » Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:00 am

Here's where you can discuss all things Ancient Greek. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get translation help and more!

Perhaps I'm using the wrong board to ask questions about Greek words. Which forum would one use as a beginner?

1) Throw away Strong's concordance with its numbers. This hampers serious learning of the language.

(2) Get yourself a basic grammar with exercises. You could go with Mounce's Basics of Biblical Greek for learning the Greek of the New Testament. You could go with any number of free resources provided on this website for learning ancient Greek (especially either Homeric or Attic) and transfer into reading the New Testament with ease.

(3) Get a hold of a good dictionary for the period of Greek that you're interested in. In the meantime, you could use Liddell-Scott-Jones (LSJ) as found online on the Perseus Project's website. When you get the money, you should purchase the BADG lexicon.

The only way to get to the meaning of small words like καί (and), δέ (and, but, now), ἀλλά (but), οὖν (therefore), γάρ (for), διότι (because), etc. will come most readily from exposure to Greek text, not from grasping for meaning from books like Strong's. Thayer's is pretty good, but until you learn some Greek you'll not have the base necessary to get into such minutiae.

That's more like it!
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Re: Use of the Greek word "and"

Postby jaihare » Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:39 am

mickeyrory wrote:Here's where you can discuss all things Ancient Greek. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get translation help and more!

Perhaps I'm using the wrong board to ask questions about Greek words. Which forum would one use as a beginner?


Notice the tag for "quote." You'll want to keep your words separate from those of others. Try to indicate when you're speaking and when you're posting the words of another forum user.

This is, of course, the right forum for asking questions and for getting started with Greek.

The question is, though, what you mean by "beginner". If you're starting to study Greek, then you're a beginner. If you're not intending to study Greek but just want to ask questions about individual words and never begin to understand anything about the structure and feel of the language, then you're not a beginner. You might be a dabbler or simply curious, but you're not a beginner.

So, with that in mind, I'd challenge you to BEGIN with Greek! Don't just call yourself a beginner, but actually become one! If you don't want to invest in a Greek textbook at this point, then I suggest that you start with something like First Greek Book by John W. White. It's freely available from this very website for download. If you open that up, begin to learn the Greek alphabet, start to look at Greek as a language and have any questions or difficulties with it, then we (the lovely users of the Textkit forums) will support you, cheer you on, help you through difficulties, advise you on the direction of your study, and maybe even pick up the exercises and study along with you!

Pick up a Greek textbook and start studying. That's the only way to get to the type of knowledge that you have expressed curiosity about.
Jason Hare
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Re: Use of the Greek word "and"

Postby mickeyrory » Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:52 am

Jahare, I'll take your advice and see where it leads. Thanks for the suggestions on where to begin.
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