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Correlatives

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Correlatives

Postby pster » Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:10 am

Well known correlatives:

τόσος /ὅσος

τοῖος/οἷος

Some questions:

1) Are the first members in essence (demonstrative) adjectives that can be used substantively (like other adjectives) as (demonstrative) pronouns?

2) It seems like you should be able to have examples where both members appear in a sentence in different cases. Does anybody know of such an example? Or can anybody confirm that such examples exist? I just realized I have never seen a divergence, hence the post.

3) Of course we have correlatives in English too, but these particular pairs seem somewhat strange. Can somebody give a couple of examples of how one would translate a τόσος /ὅσος and a τοῖος/οἷος sentence into English if one wanted to elucidate the meaning as best as possible? (Bonus points if at least one example has the two members in different cases.)

Thanks in advance.
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Re: Correlatives

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:10 pm

We would not expect any special behavior relative to case form. In other words, the same principles that apply to relative pronouns and adjectives generally, with special attention to some complications in relative pronouns commonly referred to as “attraction.” If the relative clause binds closely with the "main clause" (where the antecedent is found) functioning as a virtual adjective, quite often the relative pronoun will have the same case as the antecedent. Where the relative clause has a more independent status, functioning as a separate sentence then the relative pronoun will take a case that represents its syntactical function within the relative clause. This is not a simple matter, reading Guy Cooper and Herbert W. Smyth over the weekend I was once again impressed by the complexity of the issue.

The best I could come up with for your example is Thucydides 8.2.4 τοιούτων ... οἷος

[4] With these reasons for confidence in every quarter, the Lacedaemonians now resolved to throw themselves without reserve into the war considering that, once it was happily terminated, they would be finally delivered from such dangers as that which would have threatened them from Athens, if she had become mistress of Sicily, and that the overthrow of the Athenians would leave them in quiet enjoyment of the supremacy over all Hellas.


[4] πανταχόθεν τε εὐέλπιδες ὄντες ἀπροφασίστως ἅπτεσθαι διενοοῦντο τοῦ πολέμου, λογιζόμενοι καλῶς τελευτήσαντος αὐτοῦ κινδύνων τε τοιούτων ἀπηλλάχθαι ἂν τὸ λοιπὸν οἷος καὶ ὁ ἀπὸ τῶν Ἀθηναίων περιέστη ἂν αὐτούς, εἰ τὸ Σικελικὸν προσέλαβον, καὶ καθελόντες ἐκείνους αὐτοὶ τῆς πάσης Ἑλλάδος ἤδη ἀσφαλῶς ἡγήσεσθαι.

τοιούτων agrees with κινδύνων “such dangers” which construe with the infinitive ἀπηλλάχθαι as the metaphorical place from which they are delivered. οἷος functions as the subject of a clause “that which would have threatened them from Athens.”

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Last edited by C. S. Bartholomew on Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Correlatives

Postby NateD26 » Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:57 am

pster wrote:1) Are the first members in essence (demonstrative) adjectives that can be used substantively (like other adjectives) as (demonstrative) pronouns?

The neuter can be used substantively. See LSJ II. 2 τοσόσδε.

pster wrote:2) It seems like you should be able to have examples where both members appear in a sentence in different cases. Does anybody know of such an example? Or can anybody confirm that such examples exist? I just realized I have never seen a divergence, hence the post.

3) Of course we have correlatives in English too, but these particular pairs seem somewhat strange. Can somebody give a couple of examples of how one would translate a τόσος /ὅσος and a τοῖος/οἷος sentence into English if one wanted to elucidate the meaning as best as possible? (Bonus points if at least one example has the two members in different cases.)

LSJ gives this example from Homer in τοιόσδε:
    ἐπεὶ τόδε καλὸν ἀκουέμεν ἐστὶν ἀοιδοῦ
    τοιοῦδ᾽ οἷος ὅδ᾽ ἐστί,... (Homer, Odyssey 1. 370-1)
The infinitive requires a genitive as direct object, but inside the relative clause
the verb requires a nominative, hence the different cases.
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Re: Correlatives

Postby pster » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:32 pm

Thanks C. S. Bartholomew for the Thucydides. That certainly clears up that question.

Nate, with respect to the neuter being used substantively, I don't get it. I would think that like any adjective they could be used substantively in any case, number, and gender. If they aren't adjectives, but rather pronouns, then of course they are already substantive. Smyth calls them "pronominal adjectives" but also "correlative pronouns". (Section 340, heading and first sentence.) Mastronarde similarly ducks the issue sticking them in a table similar to Smyth's without elaboration and thereby finessing what freaking part of speech they are (the table means he doesn't have to put them in his vocabulary lists which indicate the part of speech). So I don't get what part of speech they really are. Anybody want to step up to the plate? What part of speech are τοῖος and τόσος? And which part of speech are οἷος and ὅσος?

Here is an example: What kind of cars does he like? He likes such cars of which sort are reliable. such here seems like an adjective. But its correlative, of which sort, would be what then? A relative adjective? Non capisco.
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Re: Correlatives

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:08 pm

So I don't get what part of speech they really are. What part of speech are τοῖος and τόσος? And which part of speech are οἷος and ὅσος?


According to the metalanguage used to organize the material in traditional grammars τοῖος and τόσος are demonstrative pronouns whereas οἷος and ὅσος are either listed under pronouns or discussed along with relative pronouns. However, the question of syntax function cannot be determined without reference to the context. A carful study of the citations in LSJ should serve to get a general feel for the different syntax functions associated with each lemma.

The correlative pronouns have a discourse function that sets them apart from other pronouns. They are used to structure information where comparisons are made between two entities.
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