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A δίδωμι expression

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A δίδωμι expression

Postby pster » Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:09 am

Here is the verb: δίδωμι.

Here is part of what L&S say about it:

5. Prose phrases, δ. ὅρκον, opp. λαμβάνειν, tender an oath, “δοκεῖ κἂν ὀμόσαι εἴ τις αὐτῷ ὅρκον διδοίη” Is.9.24, cf. D.39.3, Arist. Rh.1377a8; δ. ψῆφον, γνώμην, put a proposal to the vote, propose a resolution, D.21.87, 24.13: δ. χάριν, = χαρίζεσθαι, S.Aj.1354, Cratin. 317; ὀργῇ χάριν δούς having indulged . . , S.OC855; λόγον τινὶ δ. give one leave to speak, X.HG5.2.20; “δ. λόγον σφίσι” deliberate, Hdt. 1.97; “οὐκ, εἰ διδοίης . . σαυτῷ λόγον” S.OT583; δοῦναι, λαβεῖν λόγον, Arist.SE165a27 (but δ. λόγον, εὐθύνας, render accounts, IG12.91, al.): δ. δίκην or δίκας, v. δίκη: ἀκοὴν δ. λόγοις lend an ear to . . , S. El.30, etc.; δ. ἐργασίαν give diligence, = Lat. dare operam, OGI441.109 (Lagina, i B. C.), POxy.742.11: c. inf., Ev.Luc.12.58: abs., sc. “πληγήν, λίθῳ δ. τινί” PLips.13 iii 3; ἐμβολὰς διδόναι, ram, of ships, D.S.13.10.

Here are my questions:

1) What does δίδωμι δίκην mean? They discuss it two thirds of the way down.

2) How do you get that from this entry? I don't follow the logic of there punctuation and presentation.

Thanks in advance.
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Re: A δίδωμι expression

Postby NateD26 » Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:39 pm

1) LSJ & Middle-Liddell refer you to δίκη, IV.3.. It generally means to suffer punishment, make amends.

2) I'm not sure, but it must be a special idiom, deviating slightly from the original meaning of the verb:
to give justice > to hand down a verdict (the active side) > to suffer punishment (the receiver).
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Re: A δίδωμι expression

Postby pster » Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:21 pm

NateD26 wrote:LSJ & Middle-Liddell refer you to δίκη, IV.3..


Thanks Nate, but I am still confused. Not really with the Greek. I kinda knew what it meant. I just don't understand L&S here. If we just focus on the text that I quoted, I see neither a definition "to suffer punishment" nor a reference to the δίκη entry. (I know you are are talking about LSJ and Middle Liddell) But I'm really asking what the heck they are providing in L&S when they write:

" “οὐκ, εἰ διδοίης . . σαυτῷ λόγον” S.OT583; δοῦναι, λαβεῖν λόγον, Arist.SE165a27 (but δ. λόγον, εὐθύνας, render accounts, IG12.91, al.): δ. δίκην or δίκας, v. δίκη: ἀκοὴν δ. λόγοις lend an ear to . . , S. El.30, etc.;".

I assume we should go from semicolon to semi colon. There is a bit about "render accounts", but that is in parentheses. And I am not even sure that means the same as "suffer punishment" although perhaps 100 years ago in England it did.
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Re: A δίδωμι expression

Postby NateD26 » Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:01 pm

I only referred to the phrase δίκην δοῦναι, which, according to Smyth 1753,
serves as the passive of ζημιοῦν. Each of such phrases as δίκην ἔχειν, λαβεῖν, κτλ. is treated
and translated separately under δίκη in LSJ IV.3.
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Re: A δίδωμι expression

Postby spiphany » Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:13 pm

The key bit in the entry is δ. δίκην or δίκας, v. δίκη: δ abbreviates the headword, v. = vide, "see". I'm assuming that since they referred you to the other entry anyway they decided to save space and not give the definition here.
δ. λόγον, εὐθύνας, render accounts belongs to the previoous part of the entry -- the discussion of λόγον τινὶ δ.
I don't know what to tell you about the punctuation (I would expect a semicolon instead of a colon) -- are you using an online version of the LSJ? I wonder if something may have gotten scrambled during digitalization. I have the middle Liddel and it lists the phrases individually, separated by numbers.
IPHIGENIE: Kann uns zum Vaterland die Fremde werden?
ARKAS: Und dir ist fremd das Vaterland geworden.
IPHIGENIE: Das ist's, warum mein blutend Herz nicht heilt.
(Goethe, Iphigenie auf Tauris)
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Re: A δίδωμι expression

Postby spiphany » Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:23 pm

Oh, and just wanted to add -- I've always thought it a pity that Greek courses don't include a tutorial on how to use the LSJ; my impression is that most students go straight from their 1st year textbook to reading unadapted texts and are kind of left to flounder through the dictionary on their own. The dictionary is Victorian, frequently cryptic, and sometimes frustrating; it's not always obvious what the various bits of the entries mean, or how to interpret what's written there. I basically figured it out little by little as I went along, as I suspect most other Greek students do.
IPHIGENIE: Kann uns zum Vaterland die Fremde werden?
ARKAS: Und dir ist fremd das Vaterland geworden.
IPHIGENIE: Das ist's, warum mein blutend Herz nicht heilt.
(Goethe, Iphigenie auf Tauris)
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