Textkit Logo

Thuc. 4.74

Here's where you can discuss all things Ancient Greek. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get translation help and more!

Thuc. 4.74

Postby pster » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:00 am

I'm have a few embarrassingly basic questions about this passage:

οἱ δὲ ἐπειδὴ ἐν ταῖς ἀρχαῖς ἐγένοντο καὶ ἐξέτασιν ὅπλων ἐποιήσαντο, διαστήσαντες τοὺς λόχους ἐξελέξαντο τῶν τε ἐχθρῶν καὶ οἳ ἐδόκουν μάλιστα ξυμπρᾶξαι τὰ πρὸς τοὺς Ἀθηναίους ἄνδρας ὡς ἑκατόν, καὶ τούτων πέρι ἀναγκάσαντες τὸν δῆμον ψῆφον φανερὰν διενεγκεῖν, ὡς κατεγνώσθησαν, ἔκτειναν, καὶ ἐς ὀλιγαρχίαν τὰ μάλιστα κατέστησαν τὴν πόλιν.

1) What is the substantive that goes with οἱ?

2) What is τε doing?

3) What is καὶ doing here before a relative pronoun?

4) What is the substantive for τὰ? Is it ὡς ἑκατόν--"the about 100"? If so, why neuter?!

5) Does the last ὡς just mean "when"?

6) ἐς ὀλιγαρχίαν τὰ μάλιστα has got me confused. What is going on here?

Thanks in advance.
User avatar
pster
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1069
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:05 am

Re: Thuc. 4.74

Postby spiphany » Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:53 pm

Thucydides isn't easy, so don't be embarrased about not understanding everything.
I cheated and looked at a translation to get a sense for how the sentence goes together; this can be useful for reconstructing the meaning of the Greek.

1) What is the substantive that goes with οἱ?
"οἱ δὲ" can be used simply to mean "they"

2) What is τε doing?
3) What is καὶ doing here before a relative pronoun?
τε...καὶ acts as a single unit. I'm not going to try to defend Thucydides sentence structure, but basically I think he's using it to separate ἐξελέξαντο...ὡς ἑκατόν from what comes before it.

4) What is the substantive for τὰ?
Again, there isn't one. It's being used to make a substantive out of a prepositional phrase. τὰ πρὸς τοὺς Ἀθηναίους ἄνδρας = the matters regarding the Athenians (translate this more precisely according to context)

For ὡς ἑκατόν, see the LSJ entry for ὡς, section E:
ὡς with numerals marks that they are to be taken only as a round number, as it were, about, nearly


5) Does the last ὡς just mean "when"?
I would interpret it as a introducing a result clause - the people gave a vote so that/with the result that they were condemned...

6) ἐς ὀλιγαρχίαν τὰ μάλιστα has got me confused. What is going on here
It seems τὰ μάλιστα can have the meaning "to the highest degree" (LSJ entry for μάλα, section A.III.2)
IPHIGENIE: Kann uns zum Vaterland die Fremde werden?
ARKAS: Und dir ist fremd das Vaterland geworden.
IPHIGENIE: Das ist's, warum mein blutend Herz nicht heilt.
(Goethe, Iphigenie auf Tauris)
spiphany
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 425
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2005 3:15 am
Location: Munich

Re: Thuc. 4.74

Postby pster » Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:25 pm

spiphany wrote:τε...καὶ acts as a single unit. I'm not going to try to defend Thucydides sentence structure, but basically I think he's using it to separate ἐξελέξαντο...ὡς ἑκατόν from what comes before it.



From what comes before?? What the heck? I would not question you. But je ne sais pas! Non conosco! Jag vet inte! No comprendo! What kind of double reverse flip post positive is that??

spiphany wrote:5) Does the last ὡς just mean "when"?
I would interpret it as a introducing a result clause - the people gave a vote so that/with the result that they were condemned...


Not so sure about this. That was my first guess, but some other translators go with "when".

spiphany wrote:6) ἐς ὀλιγαρχίαν τὰ μάλιστα has got me confused. What is going on here
It seems τὰ μάλιστα can have the meaning "to the highest degree" (LSJ entry for μάλα, section A.III.2)


I should have narrowed it down. It is more the beginning that is bothering me. How do you set up into oligarchy? ἐς already takes an accusative. But the oligarchy seems to be the direct object. This seems like some amplified direct object/pronoun situation. I don't get it.

But thanks so much spiphany.

Hey, you'll never guess where I came across this quote!
User avatar
pster
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1069
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:05 am

Re: Thuc. 4.74

Postby IreneY » Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:20 am

I'm not spiphany but may I join?

For the first of your remaning questions, I'd say it's that they chose around a hundred from 1) their enemies and b) those who were really working with the Athenians. What I'm not sure with this kind of distinction is who those "enemies" actually were. Perhaps people they didn't like?

For the second one, and judging solely which translation I like most, I'd go with "when" :D

As for the third one, I'm not sure what you mean. It's the 3rd meaning under II in LSJ (here). They brought the city into a state of oligarchy.
Last edited by IreneY on Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: There's only so much butchering English can take
User avatar
IreneY
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 800
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:27 am
Location: U.S.A (not American though)

Re: Thuc. 4.74

Postby pster » Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:42 am

Thanks Irene.

I'll have to think about the first because it seems the context makes a difference.

As for the third, yeah, it is pretty clear now that you explain it. I don't know why but sometimes I confuse the genitive and the accusative for feminine eta nouns. Argh. I think I really need to lie on the beach.
User avatar
pster
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1069
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:05 am


Return to Learning Greek

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Alexa [Bot], Shenoute, Yahoo [Bot] and 69 guests