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Can αὐτοὶ ever mean "we" and "you"?

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Can αὐτοὶ ever mean "we" and "you"?

Postby pster » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:32 pm

Can αὐτοὶ and αὐτοὺς ever mean "we" and "you"? And what about "αὐτοὺς"? I'm thinking of cases where they are paired with a participles. If so, why would one do that rather than use the usual pronouns? Or does the translation always work out to "we ourselves fighting" or "you yourselves fighting"?
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Re: Can αὐτοὶ ever mean "we" and "you"?

Postby NateD26 » Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:24 pm

Smyth in 1206a. says it's not a personal pronoun, but is nonetheless translated as such in those instances.
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Re: Can αὐτοὶ ever mean "we" and "you"?

Postby pster » Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:41 pm

Thanks, but why do you say:
NateD26 wrote:but is nonetheless translated as such in those instances
Smyth inserts "himself" in his "translation" registering the intensiveness. Doesn't the pronoun in the translation just come from the participle and/or finite verb as it would if the αὐτοὶ were absent?
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Re: Can αὐτοὶ ever mean "we" and "you"?

Postby NateD26 » Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:47 pm

Sorry. I didn't even notice that addition. Sometimes, however, inserting -self/-selves pronoun
sounds so awkward to me that I leave it out, even if it's indeed implied.
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Re: Can αὐτοὶ ever mean "we" and "you"?

Postby Imber Ranae » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:50 am

Do you have a specific passage in mind?
Ex mala malo
bono malo uesci
quam ex bona malo
malo malo malo.
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Re: Can αὐτοὶ ever mean "we" and "you"?

Postby Homer74 » Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:24 pm

I don't know if this answers the question, but here are some examples from Plato:

* Apology (18d3)
οἱ δὲ καὶ αὐτοὶ πεπεισμένοι ἄλλους πείθοντες
And some, having been persuaded themselves, persuade others.

* Apology (19c2)
ταῦτα γὰρ ἑωρᾶτε καὶ αὐτοὶ ἐν τῇ Ἀριστοφάνους κωμῳδίᾳ,
You have seen these things for yourselves in the comedy of Aristophanes.

* Euthyphro (6b2)
τί γὰρ καὶ φήσομεν, οἵ γε καὶ αὐτοὶ ὁμολογοῦμεν περὶ αὐτῶν μηδὲν εἰδέναι;
And what shall we say, we who at least agree that we know nothing about these things?

In examples 19c2 and 6b2, αὐτοὶ appears to have an effect like γε: even you agree. The sense would also work without them. But, I can see a slight smile on Socrates as he repeats the word 'you', almost accusing the audience and the judges.
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Re: Can αὐτοὶ ever mean "we" and "you"?

Postby jaihare » Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:18 am

I'm reminded of the line from the beginning of the Apology, where we find αὐτός used as a strengthener of the first-person:

ἐγὼ δ᾽ οὖν καὶ αὐτὸς ὑπ᾽ αὐτῶν ὀλίγου ἐμαυτοῦ ἐπελαθόμην, οὕτω πιθανῶς ἔλεγον.
"And so by them, even I myself almost forgot about myself, they spoke so convincingly!"

ἐγώ + αὐτός = "I myself"
ἐμαυτοῦ = "of/about myself"

So, if it's in the plural, of course it can represent more than the third-person.
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ὁ μὲν Παῦλος τοὺς ἐν ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις μαθητὰς τὴν χωρὶς νόμου δικαιοσύνην τὴν ἐν Χριστῷ ἐδίδασκεν, οἱ δ᾿ ἄλλοι ἀπόστολοι τοὺς ἀνθρώπους ἐδίδασκον τηρεῖν τὸν θεῖον νόμον τὸν χειρὶ Μωϋσέως δοθέντα.
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