NateD26 wrote:I think it's not always easy to find the exact reason for a certain word order
and often, both interpretations by Mahoney and HQ may be plausible.
Consider this passage from Plato's Apology (20c-d):
ὑπολάβοι ἂν οὖν τις ὑμῶν ἴσως: “ἀλλ᾽, ὦ Σώκρατες, τὸ σὸν τί ἐστι πρᾶγμα; πόθεν αἱ διαβολαί σοι αὗται γεγόνασιν; οὐ γὰρ δήπου σοῦ γε οὐδὲν τῶν ἄλλων περιττότερον πραγματευομένου ἔπειτα τοσαύτη φήμη τε καὶ λόγος γέγονεν, εἰ μή τι ἔπραττες ἀλλοῖον ἢ οἱ πολλοί. λέγε οὖν ἡμῖν τί ἐστιν, ἵνα μὴ ἡμεῖς περὶ σοῦ αὐτοσχεδιάζωμεν.”
When our university professor tried to explain the first underlined question, he read it
similarly to your reading of τὸν ἀδελφὸν τίς παιδεύει, that is, that τὸ σὸν πρᾶγμα functions as
accusative of respect and τί ἐστι (αὐτό) is the question.
Note then, that by reading this way, there was no need to repeat the Topic, as you call it, the second time.
Now, on my second reading, I decided to read it as a simple question,
that is, τί ἐστι τὸ σὸν πρᾶγμα;,
even if the word order is somewhat convoluted here -- perhaps this would be the colloquial
way of asking this, seeing that Socrates channels a possible question from one of the jurists --
and still there wouldn't be any reason to repeat the Topic.
At least that's how I see it. I hope the more experienced users would join the discussion.
jswilkmd wrote:Don't forget, too, that certain word orders may be necessitated by the meter in lyric and epic poetry and, when reading such genres, I wouldn't put too much significance into whether the word order conveys emphasis.
theodoros wrote:I wonder who ignorant wrote the horrible word «η άνθρωπος». In the hole Greek literature there isn’t such a word. The woman is η γυνή.
I looked these two up in the two dictionaries above, and both gave, along with many other meanings, one meaning of them as "see [someone, something]". Both verbs are listed in the vocabulary of Chapter Two with "see" given as the translation. Again, since this is a first-year textbook, I think Mahoney wanted to keep things simple. She also wanted to give the student an -άω verb to work with. Why she chose ὁράω, I don't know. You'll have to ask her.theodoros wrote: Ορά rather [than; gfr] βλέπει.
Thanks for drawing my attention to the difference in meaning. That was my error.theodoros wrote: Παιδεύω has the meaning of educate. Teach is διδάσκω.
theodoros wrote: For the word order:
Όμηρος παιδεύει τον μαθητήν. Answers the question: What is doing Όμηρος now.
Τον μαθητήν Όμηρος παιδεύει. » » » Whom Όμηρος teaches.
Παιδεύει Όμηρος τον μαθητήν. » » » Where those cries come from (!)
But it is not necessary. Greek is not Latin or German.
I understand what you are saying. However, again, what I am doing is simply quoting (and imitating the syntax of) H & Q and Mahoney. I was curious about the use of the definite article with "Homer", so I took a look at Smyth's Greek Grammar to see what this very eminent authority had to say about its use. In Section 1136, Smyth discusses the use of the article in Attic Greek with proper names. He says that one of its uses occurs when the name is "specially marked as well known", e.g., ὁ Σόλων (Demosthenes 20.90), οἱ Ἡρακλέες (Plato Theaetetus 169 b). Since I imagine that when first-year textbooks mention "Homer", they are referring to the most well-known man with that name and not to a Homer who lives down the street, ὁ Ὅμηρος is acceptable Attic Greek. hehtheodoros wrote: And don’t use articles everywhere. If you write: Ο Όμηρος παιδεύει τον μαθητήν you mean the certain Όμηρος ( and not someone else) teaches.
Thank you. That is one convention (rule) I do understand.theodoros wrote: Use generally articles where in English use “the” and don’t use where you write “a”.
I agree with the "read, read, read" part. However, I also enjoy studying grammar, syntax, and word order. Artificial examples are often "silly"; I agree. Nevertheless, I find them extremely helpful when I am beginning the study of a new language.theodoros wrote: My advice to beginners is: Read, read, read texts, not study. Don’t care if you can’t understand the most and don’t stay in a word. It is better to memorize short phrases of a writer rather artificial examples, silly most of them.
No problem. I understood what you wrote. Thanks again for your comments!theodoros wrote: I use Modern Greek keyboard that has only οξείαν. Sorry for my English.
Homer74 wrote:I read the book 'Greek Word Order' by K. J. Dover (Bristol Classical Press, 2000) a few years back in an attempt to understand the fluidity of Greek word order. Dover begins with words that do have a determined place in the word order (e.g. postpositives and prepositives) and his argument is easy enough to follow.
But when he tries to explain other examples, the argument rests heavily on statistical evidence of actual Greek usage. For example, he says that "[this] is an observable historical fact which could never have been deduced from the definitions" (pg. 14). There is clear tension in his writing between viewing grammar as prescriptive and descriptive. Another example: "Generally speaking, the earlier the Greek, the more closely does M+M+q>Mq M approximate to a rule" (pg. 15).
My question would be whether grammar is ever a case of definitions that writers strictly follow or a later attempt by professional grammarians to understand received texts. I think the example from Plato's Apology is interesting: is Plato writing in this way to convey a colloquial speaking style on behalf of Socrates as if to say 'look - this is what the historical Socrates actually said at his trial'? Or is it something entirely different - a highly polished piece of prose composition by a master of the medium?
So, my answer to the question would relate it more to a particular author - how does a particular writer use word order rather than attempting to extract general rules for the entire corpus.
gfross wrote:I looked these two up in the two dictionaries above, and both gave, along with many other meanings, one meaning of them as "see [someone, something]". Both verbs are listed in the vocabulary of Chapter Two with "see" given as the translation. Again, since this is a first-year textbook, I think Mahoney wanted to keep things simple. She also wanted to give the student an -άω verb to work with. Why she chose ὁράω, I don't know. You'll have to ask her.
Users browsing this forum: bedwere and 43 guests