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January is Greek Prose Composition Month!

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January is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby pster » Fri May 20, 2011 2:33 am

Getting ready to put the reading aside and get busy writing. Who wants to join in tackling Arthur Sidgwick's super duper classic Introduction to Greek Prose Composition? Enrollment is limited to ten, so sign up as soon as possible. :)

http://www.textkit.com/learn/ID/166/author_id/66/
Last edited by pster on Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:55 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby refe » Fri May 20, 2011 8:56 pm

I am still working through Sidgewick's 1st Greek Writer so I'm not sure I'll be up for the task this time around. I'm only on exercise 10! Definitely looking to improve my composition skills though.
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby Scribo » Sat May 21, 2011 9:00 pm

Interested!
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby pster » Sat May 21, 2011 10:44 pm

Well, there are 175 exercises. So if we do two per day, we'll be able to get through 60 in one month. So we could do every third exercise (1, 4, 7, 10, 13...) and get through the book in one month. Then if we wanted we could repeat in July and August to finish the book. That would be a pretty hefty load at least for me, but I'm up for it.
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby Scribo » Sun May 22, 2011 10:30 am

No I agree, I work better under a hefty work load. I'm glad you said June and not May though. I've only just finished uni finals and I'm still reeling a little. Yet my bedtime reading is still in Latin. moron eimi.
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby pster » Tue May 24, 2011 10:53 pm

I ordered my Sidgwick, and English-Greek dictionary (the Oxford Pocket). I'll let you know when they arrive!
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby spiphany » Mon May 30, 2011 9:33 pm

I am interested. It might be just the motivation I need to work regularly on my Greek again (post-graduation slump here).

For some reason I'm feeling rather shy about the idea of sharing my composition efforts, though...
IPHIGENIE: Kann uns zum Vaterland die Fremde werden?
ARKAS: Und dir ist fremd das Vaterland geworden.
IPHIGENIE: Das ist's, warum mein blutend Herz nicht heilt.
(Goethe, Iphigenie auf Tauris)
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby pster » Mon May 30, 2011 10:27 pm

Shy? No need to feel shy. I'm sure your efforts will be better than mine. I'm worried about not being able to compose quickly enough. Given that Scribo is probably three times faster than I am, and probably willing to spend twice as much time, I am worried that I will only produce 1/6th as much. Please don't be shy. I need you to help me tag team Scribo!
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby NateD26 » Tue May 31, 2011 5:05 am

I'd like to join in if it's still possible, but which edition will you be using?
Since I do not have a Wordpress account to download the copy from here,
I thought to get a copy from the Internet Archive but they have so many different copies
of it (latest available is 13th ed., 1908), I'd like to know which one to get.
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby pster » Tue May 31, 2011 10:17 am

Well, as you say there are a lot of editions. We'll have to play it by ear and see if there are any big divergences. If there are, then we can switch to a single edition available at archive.org

There is still plenty of time. We may not get underway for another week. People are still recovering from exams. It may stretch into July anyway. But if you are eager to start, you can start reading the big section before the exercises (It even gets honorable mention from cb).

:)
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby pster » Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:16 pm

Update: OK, I read the introduction and Sidgwick adheres to a philosophy of making minor changes only from edition to edition in order that students with different editions be able to coordinate their studies. :) And a quick comparison of the editions on archive.org bears this out. I have the fifth edition, but as far as I can tell there are no major changes for the sixth edition. Indeed, it appears that he didn't even feel the need to add a new note for the 6th edition as he had for earlier editions. I didn't see a 5th edition so here is the link to the 6th edition: http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924021601392 The Sidgwick looks pretty awesome by the way. I think this is going to rock!

Agenda
1) Where are we going to put our answers? Just here in the thread? Or is there some kind of location?
2) It would be nice if everybody who is going to participate would declare the amount of time they are planning to allocate just so we get some idea of how quickly we will move.
3) I think we should plan on taking the next week to read the 100 or so pages of NOTES. But we better get busy writing ASAP, so let's say that the first exercise (#1) should be handed in on the 9th!

I'm planning on putting 3-4 hours per day into this so that works out to about 1.5 Nate hours or about 30 Scribo minutes or 5 Irene minutes. But I got my Greek keyboard rolling and my new Pocket Oxford Classical Greek Dictionary has a map of Greece, so I am good to go! :lol:
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby NateD26 » Thu Jun 02, 2011 8:17 am

It may be a good idea if we all work through the 13th edition, 1908,
as it got some error correction, further explanations where needed, and expanded vocabulary
in the later exercises.

For anyone in his first or even second year, and is looking for a neatly organized and illustrated
review of the material needed to ace your final exam, this is the one book get.

http://www.archive.org/details/introduc ... 00sidguoft
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby pster » Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:12 am

That's fine. If you read what he says, the changes are minor. There are no changes to the exercises and that is the key thing as far as we are concerned. The biggest change is that he gives a bit more vocabulary.
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby Scribo » Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:46 pm

Haha I think you're over estimating me,but I'm flattered non the less. Still! this will be a wonderful little month, I hope it doesn't cripple my Modern Greek/Sanskrit times though.

Also, OMG EPUB EDITION?! This is most exciting.
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby pster » Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:34 pm

OK, here is the tentative schedule. I gave it some thought and I decided that it would be best not to have one due every day as people need a bit more flexibility, so I opted for roughly three every three days or six per week. For those who want a faster pace (maybe me, maybe not me, I dunno) I gave a second set of Extra Credit Exercises. If you have any objection to this schedule please post an alternative.

SCHEDULE:

DATE EXERCISES

June 9: 1

Extra Credit: 2

June 12: 5, 10, 15

Extra Credit: 6, 11, 16

June 16: 20, 25, 30

Extra Credit: 21, 26, 31

June 19: 35, 40, 45

Extra Credit: 36, 41, 46

June 23: 50, 55, 60

Extra Credit: 51, 56, 61

June 26: 65, 70, 75

Extra Credit: 66, 71, 76

June 30: 80, 85, 90

Extra Credit: 81, 86, 91

July 3: 95, 100, 105

Extra Credit: 96, 101, 106

July 7: 110, 115, 120

Extra Credit: 111, 116, 121

July 10: 125, 130, 135

Extra Credit: 126, 131, 136

July 14: 140, 145, 150

Extra Credit: 141, 146, 151

July 17: 155, 160, 165

Extra Credit: 156, 161, 166

July 21: 170, 175

Extra Credit: 171
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby NateD26 » Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:18 pm

Are we to post our answers here or some other place?
Also, is there going to be C&C of each other's attempts? After reading the part
about idiom, my brain hurts and I'm sure I'm gonna mess up a lot in the exercises.
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby pster » Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:40 pm

Yeah, I guess we will just post our answers here. Maybe when the thread grows to a hundred pages others will get curious and join. I figure we'll just post our answers and any questions or comments about them and others can comment as they see fit.
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby NateD26 » Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:36 pm

Thanks, pster. I wanted to ask about one sentence in the sections about idiom.
I don't understand how he raised the standard of revolt was turned to
φανερῶς ἀπέστη, and what exactly does it mean.
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby pster » Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:34 pm

he raised the standard of revolt>he raised the flag of revolt>he openly revolted>he manifestly revolted> manifestly he revolted>φανερῶς ἀπέστη

Just be thankful that we are going from English to Greek and not the other way around! :lol:
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby dichthuatbbc » Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:00 am

I am interested. It might be just the motivation I need to work regularly on my Greek again (post-graduation slump here).

For some reason I'm feeling rather shy about the idea of sharing my composition efforts, though...
IPHIGENIE: Kann uns zum Vaterland die Fremde werden?
ARKAS: Und dir ist fremd das Vaterland geworden.
IPHIGENIE: Das ist's, warum mein blutend Herz nicht heilt.
(Goethe, Iphigenie auf Tauris)
---
Mr. dich thuat
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby Scribo » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:09 am

Guys, I'm sorry...I'm really struggling with writing up my research proposal which REALLY needs to be off in the next few days. Can I play catch up in a few days?
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby pster » Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:31 am

dichthuatbbc wrote:I am interested. It might be just the motivation I need to work regularly on my Greek again (post-graduation slump here).



Absolutely. Here is some motivation for you: First assignment is due tomorrow!
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby pster » Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:33 am

Scribo wrote:Guys, I'm sorry...I'm really struggling with writing up my research proposal which REALLY needs to be off in the next few days. Can I play catch up in a few days?


Of course. But let's keep it to "a few days"! :P
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby NateD26 » Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:43 am

The Vocabulary under the exercises is far from helping, and as someone who has a hard time
retaining vocabulary in general, producing three Greek prose passages every 3-4 days is going to
be downright impossible for me. I'll do what I can to produce at least one. My apologies.
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby pster » Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:46 pm

ὉΙ ΒΟΡΜΕΑΝΟΙ

Ὅ μὲν τῶν Βορμεάνων βασιλεύς τὸν μὲν φοσὸν ὅν αὐτῷ τὸ πῆθος τέλει κατ’ ἐνιαυτὸν ἥττον γενόμενον γνοὺς, τὸν δὲ πῆθος πλείον γενόμενον, ἀριθμεῖν τοὺς ἐνοικοῦντους ἐβουλεῖτο ὅπως εκεῖνους αυτὸν ἐξαπατήσαντας γνὸι καὶ κολάσαι. Ἐβουλέυετο δὲ, εἰ τοὺς ἄρχοντας αριθμεῖν τούς τής ἑκάστης πόλεως ἄνδρας κελεύοι, αὐτοὺς τιν’ἀριθμὸν ἥττον ἤ ἐκείνου ὅς ὤν ἀγγεῖλαι ἄν ὅπως ὅι αὐτῶν κλεψόμενοι λάθοιντο. Ἐβουλέυετο τι χπή ποιεῖν καίτοι εἶπεν ὅτι τὸν Δία αυτῳ ἔλεξεν ἐν ἐνυπνίͅͅῳ τις μέγαν νόσον εἰς νῆσον εἶλθειν: αὐτὸν μέντοι τοὺς Βορμεάνους φιλεῖν καὶ δελοῦν πῶς κακὸν φεύγειν. μέγα ξίφος ποιεῖν καὶ ἕκαστον ἄνδρα μιᾷ βελόνην πέμπειν καὶ ταύτας ἁθροισμένας συντήκιεν ἐν πυρί. ἄλλ’όστις μὴ τὸν αὐτοὺ βελόνην πέμπεν ὑπὲρ νοσοὺ ἀποθνέσκειν. πάντες βορμεάνοι βασιλεῖ βελόνασ πέμπσον φοβοῦμενοι μὴ αὐτοὺς πλέττωσι τῷ Διὸς ὀργῄ. καὶ οῦν καιπὲρ αὐτοὺς ἐκφεύξαντες μὴ αποθνέσκειν, ἔτι αὐτοὺς ἀνήνκασαν βασιλεῖ πλέον πῆθος τελεῖν: ἐπεὶ αὐτὸς ὁποσὸν εἶναι ἐν εκάστᾳ πόλει ἔγνω.

Well, that only took 12 hours! I could spend 6 more hours on it easily but there are 35 more where this one came from! If anybody can sight read it and give me a grade from 1-10 I'd be very thankful (1 being total gibberish and 10 being move over Demosthenes.)
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby Markos » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:45 am

His pster,

What does φοσον and πηθος mean?

I understood the story. More typos than anything. πέμπσον instead of ἒπεμψον, τι χπή ποιεῖν instead of χρη.

I think "εἶπεν ὅτι τὸν Δία αυτῳ ἔλεξεν ἐν ἐνυπνίͅͅῳ τις μέγαν νόσον εἰς νῆσον εἶλθειν" should be ὁ Ζευς αυτῳ ἔλεξεν ἐν ἐνυπνίͅͅῳ τινα μέγαν νόσον εἰς νῆσον ελθειν"

I give you a 7 out of 10. Well done!

Of course, my Greek below probably has more mistakes than your story! :)


[ χαιρε Pster,

τί σημαινουσι "φοσον" και "πηθος?"

συνηκα τουτον τον μυθον. τυπων αμαρτανεις. "πέμπσον" αντι του "ἒπεμψαν," τι "χπή" ποιεῖν αντι του "χρη."

αντι του "εἶπεν ὅτι τὸν Δία αυτῳ ἔλεξεν ἐν ἐνυπνίͅͅῳ τις μέγαν νόσον εἰς νῆσον εἶλθειν" εδει σε γραψαι "εἶπεν ὅτι ὁ Ζευς αυτῳ ἔλεξεν ἐν ἐνυπνίͅͅῳ τινα μέγαν νόσον εἰς νῆσον εἶλθειν"

διδωμι σοι 7 εκ 10. ευγε!

εγω ὁ μειζων αρμαρτωλος. ]
I am writing in Ancient Greek not because I know Greek well, but because I hope that it will improve my fluency in reading. I got the idea for this from Adrianus over on the Latin forum here at Textkit.
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby NateD26 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:14 am

Here's my attempt. It's probably far from being natural Greek prose but it's the first exercise
and it'll get easier with more practice. I haven't used any vivid indirect statements, though
that would have been probably more natural in some sentences, such as the warnings of the god
as relayed in the king's dream. I've used the oblique way of asking questions, that is, the indefinite
interrogative pron. which still retain their definite sense. I've only used future optative once.
*edit: Attic also used dep. ἐννοοῦμαι w. aor. pass. ἐνενόηθην in the same sense. (LSJ)*
And finally I've chosen aorist in most places during the story. Hope for corrections.

ὁ τῶν Β. βασιλεύς, πυθόμενος ὀλιγώτερον μὲν γιγνόμενον τὸν τῶν πολλῶν φόρον κατ᾿ ἔθος, πλείονας δὲ τοὺς πολλούς, ἐβούλευσεν αὐτοὺς ἀμιθμεῖν ἵνα εὕροι καὶ κολάζοι οὓς αὐτὸν ἐξηπάτησαν. ἐσκέψατο δ᾿, εἰ τοὺς ἄρχοντας κελεύοι ἀμιθμεῖν ἑκάστους τῶν πόλεων, ἀπαγγέλλοιεν ἂν ἧττον ἢ τῷ ὄντι ὅπως λάθοιεν κλέπτοντες. ἐνενόηθη οὖν ὅ τι χρείη ποιεῖν, τελευτῶν ὄναρ ἰδὼν ἔφη τὸν θεὸν λέγειν ὅτι νόσος μεγάλη ἔρχοιτο ἐπὶ τὴν νῆσον· τοὺς δὲ Β. φιλοῦντον δηλοίη αὐτοῖς* ὅπως σώζοιεν. τὸ μέγαν καὶ σιδηροῦς ξίφος δεῖ αὐτοὺς ποιεῖν καὶ πέμψαι ἕκαστος ἕνα βελόνην· τούτους δὲ τοὺς ἀγείραντας πυρὶ δεῖ συντήκειν. ἀλλ᾿ ὃς μὴ πέμψαι τὴν βελόνην, οὗτος ἀποθανοῖτο. ὥστε πάντες οἱ Β. ἔπεμψαν βελόνας τῷ βασιλεῖ, πολλὰ φοβούμενοι μὴ ἀποκτείναιεν ὑπὸ τὸν θεὸν· καίπερ δὲ σώσαντες, ἔτι ἠναγκάσθησαν μᾶλλον φόρον ἀποδοῦναι τῷ βασιλεῖ, ἐπειδὴ πύθοιτο ὅσοι ἦσαν ἐν ἑκάστῃ πόλει.

* edit: changed from acc. to dat.
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby spiphany » Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:16 am

A couple of comments for pster (no doubt there are things, both good and bad, which I've missed, but this is what jumped out at me):

I'm assuming that πῆθος should read πλῆθος "the multitude" (article should also be τὸ, since neuter) and φοσόν should be φόρον
γνὸι => γνοίη?: check your endings for -mi verbs (also, accent should be on the second vowel of the diphthong, but I'm guessing that's a typo). I'm not sure if γιγνώσκω is the best translation for "discover" here.
κλεψόμενοι - you've mixed present endings with the aorist stem here (-αμενος)
εἶλθειν => ἠλθειν?
δελοῦν => δηλοῦν?

I like the τὸν μὲν ... τὸ δὲ in the first sentence.
πῶς κακὸν φεύγειν strikes me as a nice idiomatic way of putting "avert the plague"

Mostly it's understandable what you're getting at. A couple of times you got a bit lost in the syntax, I think, but that's quite understandable, for a "beginning" composition book the sentences are quite complex.
IPHIGENIE: Kann uns zum Vaterland die Fremde werden?
ARKAS: Und dir ist fremd das Vaterland geworden.
IPHIGENIE: Das ist's, warum mein blutend Herz nicht heilt.
(Goethe, Iphigenie auf Tauris)
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby spiphany » Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:37 am

For NateD26:
ὀλιγώτερον: ὀλιγος has an irregular comparative
κατ᾿ ἔθος: were you going for "according to custom" or some such, or is it a typo for ἔτος?
I assume ἀμιθμεῖν is meant to be ἀριθμεῖν
...κολάζοι οὓς αὐτὸν ἐξηπάτησαν: I'm not absolutely sure whether attraction/omission of the antecedent is appropriate here. I *think* it typically happens when the antecedent is dative or genitive, but am not sure what happens in other cases...will have to wade through Smyth a bit...
τελευτῶν: ok, I see the root, but not how you're deriving the form here

δεῖ συντήκειν πυρὶ: like the use of δεῖ here
ἀλλ᾿ ὃς μὴ πέμψαι τὴν βελόνην, οὗτος ἀποθανοῖτο: concise and elegantly expressed
ὥστε πάντες οἱ Β. ἔπεμψαν βελόνας τῷ βασιλεῖ, πολλὰ φοβούμενοι μὴ ἀποκτείναιεν ὑπὸ τὸν θεὸν: again, this flows very naturally
IPHIGENIE: Kann uns zum Vaterland die Fremde werden?
ARKAS: Und dir ist fremd das Vaterland geworden.
IPHIGENIE: Das ist's, warum mein blutend Herz nicht heilt.
(Goethe, Iphigenie auf Tauris)
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby spiphany » Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:47 am

And finally since I've been critiquing you guys, here's my own offering.
I understand about the typos creeping in -- I found and removed several in my own text before posting, and I'm sure I've missed some.

I actually started working through Sidgwick several summers ago, but only got to lesson 6 or so; I got overwhelmed by the seemingly endless possibilities offered by his complex sentences. I tried to do this without referring to my original attempt, then compared the two, so what you have below is a blend of the two. It's somewhat participle heavy (I like participles) and light on the optatives; if I recall I used infinitives instead wherever I thought I could get away with it.

ὁ τῶν Βορμεανων βασιλεὺς αἰσθανόμενος τὸν φόρον κατ’ ἐνιαυτὸν μείον ὄν, τὸ δὲ πλῆθος μείζον ἐβούλευσε μανθάνειν ὁποῖοί εἰσιν οἱ ἐνοικοῦντες καἰ τοὺς ἐξαπατουντας κολάζειν. ἐνόμισε δὲ, κελεύσας τοῖς ἄρχωσι ἀριθμεῖν τοὺς ἐν ἑκάστῇ πολει ἀνθρώπους, οὕτοι ἀγγέλωσι ἄν ἤσσονα τοῦ ὄντος ἀριθμὸν ὅπως λάθοιεν κλεποντας. ἐνεθυμεῖτο οὖν τί χρη καὶ ὕστατον ἔφη τὸν θεὸν αὐτῷ ἐνυπνίῳ εἶπειν ὅτι ὁ νόσος ἔρχοιτο ἔν τῇ νήσῳ · φιλεῖν δὲ τοὺς Βορμεανους, καὶ φράσειν ὅπως ἀποτρέψαιεν τὸν κακὸν · ἀνάγκη δὲ ποιεῖν μεγα ξίφος ἑκάστου ἀνδρος μίαν βελόνην πεμψάντος · συντήκειν δ’ ἐν πυρὶ τὰς συλλεγομένας. ἀλλὰ ὅστις μὴ πεμψαι τὴν βελόνην, ἀποθανεῖσθαι τῇ νόσῳ. πάντες οὖν οἱ Βορμεανοι φοβούμενοι μὴ πάθοιεν ὑπὸ τοῦ χωλομένου θεοῦ ἔπεμψαν βελόνας πρὸς τὸν βασιλέα. οὔτω φυγόντες περ μὴ ἀποθνῃσκειν ἠνάγκασαν μείζονα φόρον ἀποδοῦναι τῷ βασιλεῖ, ἐπειδη ἐξεῦρε ὁποῖοί ἐν πάσῃ πόλει εἰσιν.
IPHIGENIE: Kann uns zum Vaterland die Fremde werden?
ARKAS: Und dir ist fremd das Vaterland geworden.
IPHIGENIE: Das ist's, warum mein blutend Herz nicht heilt.
(Goethe, Iphigenie auf Tauris)
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby NateD26 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:55 am

Thanks, spiphany. Much appreciated.

Is the irregular comparative of ὀλίγoς in the sense here μείων?

Thanks for catching that typo. I did mean καθ᾿ ἕτος, yearly, like καθ᾿ ἡμέραν, daily,
though I don't know if it's the right preposition.

...κολάζοι οὓς αὐτὸν ἐξηπάτησαν. I think you're right since the relative clause itself has a verb
and an object and so the relative pron. would be nominative and there's rarely any attraction
in that case. So ...κολάζοι τούτους οἳ αὐτὸν ἐξηπάτησαν, right?

Regarding τελευτῶν, I just followed what the author wrote in the notes on idiom about this participle
meaning "when he completed an action, or upon completion, he did/said so and so"
I remember Plato used that in the Apology about Socrates' journey to find who is the wisest of all.
(22c: τελευτῶν οὖν ἐπὶ τοὺς χειροτέχνας ᾖα.)
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby pster » Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:06 am

Wow. It is so great you guys showed up! I was a bit worried yesterday. You guys tricked me! If I had known you were all going to show up I would have polished mine for another 6 hours!!!!

1) I think we should all try to do what we can. So don't be discouraged. I find it all very hard, but I think it is helping me enormously.

2) Related to 1), I am wondering whether folks think we should err on the side of quality or quantity? Yesterday I erred on the side of quantity.

3) Here is the answer key: http://www.archive.org/stream/keytogree ... 0/mode/1up
And note that in the back there are some errata and alternatives.
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby NateD26 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:05 pm

spiphany wrote:ὥστε πάντες οἱ Β. ἔπεμψαν βελόνας τῷ βασιλεῖ, πολλὰ φοβούμενοι μὴ ἀποκτείναιεν ὑπὸ τὸν θεὸν: again, this flows very naturally

Thanks, spiphany. I should correct the case after ὑπὸ to genitive.

pster wrote:3) Here is the answer key: http://www.archive.org/stream/keytogree ... 0/mode/1up
And note that in the back there are some errata and alternatives.

This would very much aid me in checking myself after my attempts. Thanks. :)
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby pster » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:16 pm

Some gripes. These are of different kinds but can all I think be generalized. Curious what people think.

0) I see it all over Sidgwick where he wants to tell us how concise the Greek is but he seems to use overly flowery English to make the contrast vivid.

1) Sidgwick uses "discover" twice in the first sentence but translates it two different ways. Given that this is an introductory book and that he made up the passage himself this strikes me as inexcusably bad pedagogy. If he wants us to use two different words, he can use two different words.

2) At the very end of the first sentence we get: "that he might discover and punish those who deceived him." Here "discover" and "punish" are in parallel. But his translation puts one into a participle. Nice Greek. But if he wants us to go that route, there are ways in English to signal that. For example: "that he might punish those discovered to be deceiving him." Or perhaps: "that discovering those deceiving him he might punish them." Now those are not beautiful English, but they are grammatically correct. And after all we are translating into Greek. These allow the student to guess the intended translation and still appreciate the Greek concision, so I again think this is just bad pedagogy.

3) Related to 2), and going in the other direction, it is great that he gives us real quotes, but I don't like the English translations. Just because the Greek participle is ubiquitous doesn't mean that the English participle is not serviceable. I use the English participle all the time and my uses are much like the Greek, sometimes temporal, sometimes causal, sometimes concessive, sometimes this sometimes that, sometimes a mixture. Why when faced with Greek, do grammarians think that they need to put participles in some category and then translate without using participles at all!?!? Seems to me about half the time we can just translate with a participle without loss of (rich) meaning.

4) I don't know what kind of punishment the king had in mind, but it seems to me an aorist kind of thing. But Sidgwick chooses the present at the end of the first sentence. Again, given that this is really an issue of pedagogy, why go that way? And how is the student supposed to know? This gripe generalizes. There is so much aspect propaganda, but whenever it is close I see contemporary grammarians make sloppy or dubious or at least unexplained choices.

P.S. I am trying to work through all the comments. I think we have a nice size group actually so that everybody will get lots of attention and there will be no need for strict procedure. :)
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby Markos » Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:34 am

εγραψεν spiphany

οὔτω φυγόντες περ μὴ ἀποθνῃσκειν ἠνάγκασαν μείζονα φόρον ἀποδοῦναι τῷ βασιλεῖ, ἐπειδη ἐξεῦρε ὁποῖοί ἐν πάσῃ πόλει εἰσιν.


χαιρε φιλτατη,

δοκει μοι οτι εδει σε γεγραφηναι το "ἠναγκάσθησαν," τουτ' εστιν το παθητικόν.

πλην ὁ σου μυθος τε καλος και ευκοπον του συνιεναι. ωσπερ γνησιος Ελλην γραφεις συ. ]

[ Hi,

It seems to me that you should have written the passive, ἠναγκάσθησαν.

But your story is both polished and easy to understand. You write like a genuine Greek!
I am writing in Ancient Greek not because I know Greek well, but because I hope that it will improve my fluency in reading. I got the idea for this from Adrianus over on the Latin forum here at Textkit.
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby NateD26 » Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:00 pm

NateD26 wrote:ἐπειδὴ πύθοιτο ὅσοι ἦσαν ἐν ἑκάστῃ πόλει.

Before I'm diving into exercise 5, I think I should have used either the interrogative pronoun
πόσοι (vivid) or its indefinite ὁπόσοι (strict sequence), since ὅσοι is a relative pronoun
and doesn't fit here.
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby pster » Sat Jun 11, 2011 6:57 pm

OK, I'm doing better with Ex. V. I have a better methodology now. I get the feeling that I am at the bottom of the class, so this probably helps me more than you. Genius we know plays by its own rules. :)

______________________________________________________________________________________________

METHODOLOGY

1) Read the passage a couple of times well in advance and try to spot constructions that Sidgwick has discussed. (I was only able to read about 25% of the notes prior to starting the exercises and all I can do is allocate an hour a day for reading the text. Still, I find this quite helpful. Sometimes I can spot a construction that he has probably discussed and locate and read the discussion before beginning.)

2) With Sidgwick's dictionary plus another English-Greek dictionary, pound out a rough translation on paper as quickly as possible. I find it best to write on every third line. With the first exercise I tried to do it on the computer which doesn't lend itself to sketching. I also got bogged down worrying about minutae and tangential matters like rereading about accents on participles of contracted vs. uncontracted verbs. Fine if you have extra time, but otherwise this kind of thing should get lowest priority.

3) Now with a rough draft finished, return to the most important syntactical issues you are uncomfortable with and try to shape your draft into something that at least makes sense to you.

4) Transfer to computer and finalize punctuation and accentuation.

5) Reread it enough times so that you are comfortable with a) the vocabulary and b) the verb moods and tenses and c) the constructions. This is important so that you can more quickly understand what others have come up with and better engage them on the merits of their choices vs. your own.

______________________________________________________________________________________________

I'm shooting for at least having V and X done by evening Sat. Hopefully I'll be able to circle back and join the discussion of I.
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby spiphany » Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:46 am

Markos wrote:
οὔτω φυγόντες περ μὴ ἀποθνῃσκειν ἠνάγκασαν μείζονα φόρον ἀποδοῦναι τῷ βασιλεῖ, ἐπειδη ἐξεῦρε ὁποῖοί ἐν πάσῃ πόλει εἰσιν.

δοκει μοι οτι εδει σε γεγραφηναι το "ἠναγκάσθησαν," τουτ' εστιν το παθητικόν.

ἀληθῶς λέγεις. εὐχαριστῶ σοι.

-------------------
pster:
Your complaints about Sidgwick are justified, I think. It's not a beginning text, at least in the sense of being designed for students who are not already comfortable writing in Greek. It's -- well, a composition book -- that is, a series of guided exercises directed towards writing compositions (essays) in Greek. There's a bit of a difference, at least for the modern student, I suspect in Sidgwick's time he could assume a decent grounding in the topic before students came to his text.

His English is pretty Victorian at times...not a lot that can be done about that, I'm afraid, although I think it's easier when you're used to it.

I did a semester of beginning Greek composition when I was in Germany and we focused on specific grammatical topics (using the genitive absolute, the differences between tenses, modal expressions, and so forth), always using single sentences, not extended passages of connected discourse. I found it much less intimidating. Sidgwick's First Greek Writer is a bit easier, too, but in general I think it helps to have a teacher who can give plenty of examples of usage and work through them with you. (I'm reading Sidgwick's introduction a section at a time -- any longer than that and I find I tend to not pay attention and the nuances don't sink in, this is where it would help to try coming up with simple sentences oneself and be able to ask: is this right?, but it's difficult to interrogate a book, of course.)
IPHIGENIE: Kann uns zum Vaterland die Fremde werden?
ARKAS: Und dir ist fremd das Vaterland geworden.
IPHIGENIE: Das ist's, warum mein blutend Herz nicht heilt.
(Goethe, Iphigenie auf Tauris)
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby pster » Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:57 pm

Ex. V.

ΚΑΥΦΡΑΤΕΣ ΚΑΙ ΑΥΤΟΥ ΓΥΝΗ

Καύφρατές τις βασιλέυς τῶν βαρβάρων ὅυτω τὰς πολίτας τυραννίδι νηλεεῖ ἠδίκει ὥστε αὐτοὶ ἐβουλεύσαντο καὶ βιαίως αὐτὸν ἑλόντες εἰς τὸν δεσμωτήριον ἔβαλον. αὐτὸς μέντοι ὑπὲρ ἄλλων φίλων λιπὼν ἔσχε καλὴν γυναῖκα. αὐτὴ ἄνδρα εἶδειν ἐπιθυμοῦσα ᾔτεσε φύλακα ἐᾶν ἀυτὴν τὸν δεσμυτήριον εἰσείλθειν· ἄλλ'αὐτὸς ὅυτος ὠμὸς ἦν ὥστε οὐκ ἐθέλησε φὰς μηδένα ἔλεον τύραννον ἄξιον εἶναι. ἐπὶ μέντοι τελευτῆς ἐπείσθη τοσοῦτον ἰδὼς πῶς καλή ἐστι καὶ κακοδαίμων ὥστ'εἴασ'αὐτὴν μένειν μίαν ἡμέραν μετὰ ἀνδρὸς ἐφ'ᾦ ἐλθεὶν πρὸ νυκτός. ὥστ'ἐπεὶ νὺξ ἐπῄει, ὁ φύλαξ τὴν θύραν ἤνοιξ'ἵν'αὐτὴ ἐλθίη· ἄλλ΄αὐτή τατέως εἴλθε οὐδένα εἶπων ὥστε ἐθαύμασε. τῇ ὑστεραίᾳ καύφρατες ἔμενε ἐν τῷ λέχῳ καλύπτων μετὰ πέπλων ὡς νόσει. ἑυρίσκων αὐτον μένειν ἡμέρας ποσάσδε, ὁ φύλαξ ἐκάλησ'ἰατρὸν ὅς τοῦς πέπλους λύων ἡύρεσε ὁυ μὲν ἐστι καύφρατες, γυνὴ δέ. τῇ τέχνῃ καὶ τῇ πίστει ἐφεύγε ὁ τύραννος.

I'll try to get Ex. X. done by tomorrow. I'm very slow with these things, but getting faster. :)
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Re: June is Greek Prose Composition Month!

Postby spiphany » Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:31 am

I'll look over your version tomorrow; meanwhile, here's my offering. I found the shifting pronoun references in this to be a challenge; Greek doesn't handle the issue as straightforwardly as English does.

Καυφάτης βασιλεύς τις τῶν Περσῶν ἤδικα τοὺς πολίτας τοσουτῶς τυραννεύως ἄνοικτος ὥστε συμβουλευσάμενοι ἔβαλον αὖτον βίᾳ ἐν δεσμωτηρίῳ. ὁ δὲ καίπερ λελεμμένος τοῖς ἀλλοις φίλοις πιστην γυναῖκα εἶχε. ἐπιθυμοῦσα δὲ ἥδε ὁρᾶν τὸν ἀνδρὰν ᾐτησε τὸν φύλακα ἐᾶν αὔτην εἰσελθεῖν εἰς τὸν δεσμωτηρίον. οὗτος ὰγρίος ὤν οὐκ ἤθελε λεγὼν τύραννον οὐδεντος οἴκτους ἄξιον. τέλος ἐπείσθη ταύτῃ καλᾳ οὐσᾳ καὶ δυστυχεῖ ὥστε εἴασε μεῖναι μίαν ἡμέραν* παρ’ ἀνδρὶ αὑτης, δεῖ γε πρὸ νυκτὸς ἀπελθεῖν ἐκ τοῦ δεσμωτηρίου. τῆς νυκτὸς ἐπιούσης ἀνέῳξε νῦν τὴν θύραν ὁ φύλαξ ἵνα ἀπέρχοιτο · ἡ δἐ θαυμασιῶς ἔβη ταχέως καὶ ἔσιγα. τῇ δὲ ὑστερεῖα ἔκειτο ὁ Καυφάτης ἐν λέχει καλυπτόμενος τὴν κεφαλὴν χλαίναις, ὡς σφόδρα νοσῶν. μένοντος δὲ πολλὰς ἡμέρας, ὁ φύλαξ προσεκάλεσε ἰατρὀν. ἐκεῖνος οῦν τὰς χλαῖνας λύσας εὑρε οὐ Καυφάτην ἀλλὰ τὴν γυναῖκα. οὕτω έφυγεν ὁ τύραννος διὰ τὴν τεχνἠν αὐτῆς καὶ πιστότην.

*I was struck by the similarities to this line from Euripides' Medea: μίαν με μεῖναι τήνδ᾽ ἔασον ἡμέραν (340)

I wasn't terribly crazy about how the first sentence is constructed (the bit after ὥστε: subordination/prior action requiring a pariciple, followed by a two-part action also requiring a participle), so I kind of left out one of the verbs because I couldn't find a solution I liked that didn't suggest the two participles were parallel.
IPHIGENIE: Kann uns zum Vaterland die Fremde werden?
ARKAS: Und dir ist fremd das Vaterland geworden.
IPHIGENIE: Das ist's, warum mein blutend Herz nicht heilt.
(Goethe, Iphigenie auf Tauris)
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