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Enough already! Four verbs in a row!!!!

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Enough already! Four verbs in a row!!!!

Postby pster » Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:38 pm

D. 9.3

ὑμεῖς τὴν παρρησίαν ἐπὶ μὲν τῶν ἄλλων οὕτω κοινὴν οἴεσθε δεῖν εἶναι πᾶσι τοῖς ἐν τῇ πόλει, ὥστε καὶ τοῖς ξένοις καὶ τοῖς δούλοις αὐτῆς μεταδεδώκατε, καὶ πολλοὺς ἄν τις οἰκέτας ἴδοι παρ᾽ ἡμῖν μετὰ πλείονος ἐξουσίας ὅ τι βούλονται λέγοντας ἢ πολίτας ἐν ἐνίαις τῶν ἄλλων πόλεων, ἐκ δὲ τοῦ συμβουλεύειν παντάπασιν ἐξεληλάκατε.

For crying out loud!!!!

1) Do we really need the εἶναι? Can anybody enlighten us verbally challenged folks what is going on here? If we dropped the εἶναι, I'd be just fine.

2) And while we are looking at this sentence, can anybody explain why πλείονος is plural? τις is singular so I'm confused.

3) And what is the subject of ἴδοι?

4) Related to 3, can you just put a verb in 3 person singular in Attic and have it mean the same as French "On"? Or English "One"? I don't know that I have encountered that yet and I was wondering if that is what is going on with ἴδοι.

Thanks in advance.
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Re: Enough already! Four verbs in a row!!!!

Postby NateD26 » Sat Apr 02, 2011 7:25 pm

I think it's just three verbs :)

Reordering the sentence helps:
ὑμεῖς οἴεσθε τὴν παρρησίαν ἐπὶ μὲν τῶν ἄλλων δεῖν εἶναι οὕτω κοινὴν πᾶσι τοῖς ἐν τῇ πόλει, ὥστε ...
You think your frankness in other matters must be so common with all those in the city, that...
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Re: Enough already! Four verbs in a row!!!!

Postby pster » Sat Apr 02, 2011 7:47 pm

Very good. Thanks Nate. I considered that but incorrectly dismissed because I thought (and still think) it reads better making the first word a verb and dropping "to be". :P I'm running into these damned sentences where I can't even identify whether a word is a noun or a verb. I'm putting the next damed sentence (D. 9.4) in a new post. How about my other three questions? :P
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Re: Enough already! Four verbs in a row!!!!

Postby NateD26 » Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:11 pm

pster wrote:2) And while we are looking at this sentence, can anybody explain why πλείονος is plural? τις is singular so I'm confused.

3) And what is the subject of ἴδοι?

I don't quite understand no. 4, or the overall meaning of the sentence to be honest,
but I think the subject of the potential optative ἂν ἴδοι is τις and πλείονος is gen. sg. fem.
(same as masc.) in the prepositional phrase μετὰ πλείονος ἐξουσίας, and because it's a comparative,
we have ἢ πολίτας ἐν ἐνίαις τῶν ἄλλων πόλεων.
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Re: Enough already! Four verbs in a row!!!!

Postby pster » Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:21 pm

I screwed up my question. I meant to say πολλούς is plural. OK, still reading. Eating. Be back in an hour or two.
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Re: Enough already! Four verbs in a row!!!!

Postby pster » Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:28 pm

OK. Thanks. Here is what I have now for the end of the sentence:

...that to foreigners and slaves of itself you give a share and many(πολλούς:X) one might see slaves(X) among you with more power that(ὅ τι) are willing to speak than citizens in some of the other states, but from your deliberations you have completely banished (it).

a) Am I right that πολλούς modifies slaves? But it is so far away! Hehe. Is that right? Or is it perhaps some sort of accusative of time? πολλούς=many times??

b) How are we to translate ὅ τι? And is it ὅ τι or ὅτι? Neither one seems to work. ὅ τι=whatever doesn't seem right. oitines seems like it would be more correct if one were to go that route. And ὅτι=that doesn't seem right either.

c) Is the rest of this gloss ok?
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Re: Enough already! Four verbs in a row!!!!

Postby Imber Ranae » Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:25 am

pster wrote:Very good. Thanks Nate. I considered that but incorrectly dismissed because I thought (and still think) it reads better making the first word a verb and dropping "to be".


Wouldn't it have to be κοινοῦν in that case? And how do you translate it when reading it this way?

pster wrote:OK. Thanks. Here is what I have now for the end of the sentence:

...that to foreigners and slaves of itself you give a share and many(πολλούς:X) one might see slaves(X) among you with more power that(ὅ τι) are willing to speak than citizens in some of the other states, but from your deliberations you have completely banished (it).


αὐτῆς is just a regular demonstrative pronoun (not reflexive) which has παρρησίαν as its antecedent. The verb μεταδεδώκατε takes a genitive of what is shared: "...that you have given a share of it even to the foreigners and slaves..."

pster wrote:a) Am I right that πολλούς modifies slaves? But it is so far away! Hehe. Is that right? Or is it perhaps some sort of accusative of time? πολλούς=many times??


Assuming by "slaves" you mean οἰκέτας "menials/domestic servants", yes. They're only separated by two words, though, one a particle and the other an indefinite pronoun, which is hardly unusual in Greek.

pster wrote:b) How are we to translate ὅ τι? And is it ὅ τι or ὅτι? Neither one seems to work. ὅ τι=whatever doesn't seem right. oitines seems like it would be more correct if one were to go that route. And ὅτι=that doesn't seem right either.


It's a neuter indefinite relative pronoun going with the participle λέγοντας. Here's my gloss (with simplified word order):

καὶ ἄν τις ἴδοι [and one might see] πολλοὺς οἰκέτας παρ᾽ ἡμῖν [more menials among you] λέγοντας ὅ τι βούλονται [saying whatever they wish] μετὰ πλείονος ἐξουσίας [with more licence] ἢ πολίτας ἐν ἐνίαις τῶν ἄλλων πόλεων [than citizens in some of the other city-states].

pster wrote:c) Is the rest of this gloss ok?


The final clause seems right.
Ex mala malo
bono malo uesci
quam ex bona malo
malo malo malo.
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Re: Enough already! Four verbs in a row!!!!

Postby NateD26 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:14 pm

pster wrote:a) Am I right that πολλούς modifies slaves? But it is so far away! Hehe. Is that right? Or is it perhaps some sort of accusative of time? πολλούς=many times??

b) How are we to translate ὅ τι? And is it ὅ τι or ὅτι? Neither one seems to work. ὅ τι=whatever doesn't seem right. oitines seems like it would be more correct if one were to go that route. And ὅτι=that doesn't seem right either.

I think πολλούς indeed modifies οἰκέτας as direct object of ἴδοι but ἄν got the 2nd place in the clause
as it usually does (ignore καί for the sake of this argument :) ). I suspect, however, that there is some
hierarchy Demosthenes uses here, wherein οἰκέται are a level above δοῦλοι (LSJ notes this) and below
ξένοι with πολῖται as the highest level. So οἰκέται are perhaps butlers, freely roaming around the house
-- something δοῦλοι were probably not allowed to do -- or even the family members other than the
father (yeah, I know, chauvinistic :? ), who, according to these people Demos. is talking to, are saying
whatever they want, hence a participle in masc. acc. pl. modifying them and an indefinite relative
clause functioning as its direct object. I was wondering initially if it's possible to read this participle
as you read it, standing instead of the generally used complementary infinitive but I cannot find such
a use in LSJ, and in any case, such translation, i think, does not fit the context.

EDIT: Sorry, Imber Ranae beat me to it. :)
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Re: Enough already! Four verbs in a row!!!!

Postby pster » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:53 pm

@ Imber: Yes, κοινοῦν would certainly work.

But LSJ/Perseus says κοινήν is also an infinitive form.

κοινοῦν verb pres inf act epic doric contr

κοινήν verb pres inf act doric ionic contr

So I'm not sure what is going on there.


I've given up this reading, but if you dropped einai, you would get:

you think it is so necessary to grant general freedom of speech to others

The Vince translation on Perseus is similar to that with "to grant", so that is what undoubtedly got me thinking that it had to be an infinitive rather than an adjective. Maybe I just need to stop peeking at the English translations on Perseus. Argh.


Right, αὐτῆς is not reflexive. But I don't believe it is demonstrative. Just a personal pronoun.

Thanks Imber, your gloss really cleared it all up. :)
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Re: Enough already! Four verbs in a row!!!!

Postby pster » Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:02 pm

NateD26 wrote:I was wondering initially if it's possible to read this participle
as you read it, standing instead of the generally used complementary infinitive but I cannot find such
a use in LSJ, and in any case, such translation, i think, does not fit the context.



Sorry Nate, I don't follow. Which participle?
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Re: Enough already! Four verbs in a row!!!!

Postby NateD26 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:10 pm

The sentence reads καὶ πολλοὺς ἄν τις οἰκέτας ἴδοι παρ᾽ ἡμῖν μετὰ πλείονος ἐξουσίας ὅ τι βούλονται λέγοντας ἢ πολίτας ἐν ἐνίαις τῶν ἄλλων πόλεων.

You've translated it as if λέγοντας were λέγειν.

and many(πολλούς:X) one might see slaves(X) among you with more power that(ὅ τι) are willing to speak.
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