pster wrote:OK, finding the Euthyphro to be A LOT easier than the Apology. But I have a couple of questions about this sentence:
καὶ δὴ καὶ Μέλητος ἴσως πρῶτον μὲν ἡμᾶς ἐκκαθαίρει τοὺς τῶν νέων τὰς βλάστας διαφθείροντας, ὥς φησιν: ἔπειτα μετὰ τοῦτο δῆλον ὅτι τῶν πρεσβυτέρων ἐπιμεληθεὶς πλείστων καὶ μεγίστων ἀγαθῶν αἴτιος τῇ πόλει γενήσεται, ὥς γε τὸ εἰκὸς συμβῆναι ἐκ τοιαύτης ἀρχῆς ἀρξαμένῳ.
A tricky passage, to be sure.
pster wrote:Now I'll insert my questions:
καὶ δὴ καὶ Μέλητος ἴσως πρῶτον μὲν ἡμᾶς ἐκκαθαίρει τοὺς [ τοὺς: us? or the plants?]
It modifies ἡμᾶς. The article is acting here much like a relative clause, but notice it does not go with a finite verb, as a normal relative clause would, but rather with the participle διαφθείροντας. This participle is technically an adjective modifying ἡμᾶς in the attributive position, as per usual after an article, which is probably a bit unexpected with personal pronouns but should be entirely familiar to you from how regular nouns work.
pster wrote:τῶν νέων τὰς βλάστας[the plants of the young? huh?]
Literally "the sprouts/shoots of the young ones". He seems to be continuing the metaphorical language from the previous line, where he speaks of a husbandman taking care of τῶν νέων φυτῶν "the young plants", but τῶν νέων alone can also mean simply "young men". Here he definitely means human youth, but he's speaking figuratively with the metaphor from the previous sentence still in mind. Maybe translate as something like "the sprouts/shoots of the youth".
pster wrote:διαφθείροντας, ὥς φησιν: ἔπειτα μετὰ τοῦτο δῆλον ὅτι [what kind of ὅτι is this? indefinite pronoun or "that"? I assume it is "that" but then what kind of role is it playing here? There is no verb of seeing, saying, etc. in the vicinity.]
There's an implied ἐστί with δῆλον, which is an impersonal construction that means "it is clear". This is where the ὅτι comes in, introducing indirect discourse.
pster wrote:τῶν πρεσβυτέρων ἐπιμεληθεὶς πλείστων καὶ μεγίστων ἀγαθῶν αἴτιος[ how does αἴτιος function? I'm getting the feeling that there is a "to be" implicit. Or is this in the nominative because γενήσεται is like a copula?]
γενήσεται is a copulative verb, yes. It's predicate is αἴτιος which means "responsible [for]" with the gentives πλείστων...ἀγαθῶν. The other genitive τῶν πρεσβυτέρων is the object of the participle ἐπιμεληθεὶς from ἐπιμελέομαι "to take care of", which regularly takes a genitive object.
pster wrote:τῇ πόλει γενήσεται, ὥς γε τὸ εἰκὸς συμβῆναι [what is this last verb doing?]
This is tricky. There's another ἐστί implied with τὸ εἰκὸς, and I guess the infinitive συμβῆναι is its predicate, the whole clause functioning as a sort of impersonal construction: "as is likely [lit. the likelihood] to happen...".
pster wrote:ἐκ τοιαύτης ἀρχῆς ἀρξαμένῳ [dative? what kind of dative is this? and why do we need the dative?].
It's a dative of reference with συμβῆναι: "...likely to happen to one having begun from such a beginning".
pster wrote:So I guess I have six questions. And if you are bored, you can give me maximally literal clunky interlinear style gloss!
καὶ δὴ καὶ [and indeed also] Μέλητος ἴσως [Meletus perhaps] πρῶτον μὲν ἡμᾶς ἐκκαθαίρει [is first sweeping us away] τοὺς [the ones who] τῶν νέων τὰς βλάστας διαφθείροντας [are destroying the sprouts of the young ones], ὥς φησιν [as he says]: ἔπειτα μετὰ τοῦτο [then after this] δῆλον ὅτι [it is clear that] τῶν πρεσβυτέρων ἐπιμεληθεὶς [having taken care of the elderly ones] πλείστων καὶ μεγίστων ἀγαθῶν [for the most and greatest good things] αἴτιος τῇ πόλει γενήσεται [he will become responsible to the city], ὥς γε [as at any rate] τὸ εἰκὸς συμβῆναι [it is likely to occur] ἐκ τοιαύτης ἀρχῆς ἀρξαμένῳ [for one who has begun from such a beginning].
And a cleaned up translation:
And so Meletus is perhaps first sweeping away those of us who are corrupting the sprouts of the youth, as he says; after that, then, it is clear that by taking care of the elderly he will be the cause of very many great blessings to the city, as is at any rate likely to be the outcome for anyone who has made such a beginning.
pster wrote:I get the main thrust of the sentence, but I too often feel with Greek as though I were going down a swift river on a raft that is made up of a roped flotsam and jetsam that may come apart and at least has different parts going up and down at the same time!
I know how you feel. It takes a lot of practice to get used to it.