Εvidence that σώζω can mean "to free"?

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persequor
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Εvidence that σώζω can mean "to free"?

Post by persequor »

Χαιρετε πασιν:

I have started to use North & Hillard's Greek Prose Composition, and I have a question about one of the answers to the exercises in the key (available from Textkit).

On pg. 3, Exercise 2, question 5 reads "We wish to free Greece." The key gives the answer as "ἐθέλομεν [βουλόμεθα] σώζειν τὴν Ἑλλάδα." Here the authors are using σώζειν to translate "to free". My question is, does anybody know of an example supporting this meaning? I checked LSJ and BAGD with no success (except that BAGD mentions that σώζω can mean "to free from sickness".) The authors (North & Hillard) themselves do not list σώζω as a translation for "to free" in either the Special Vocabularies or the General Vocabulary; they only list ἐλευθερόω and λύω.

Any help will be appreciated.

Persequor
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Re: Εvidence that σώζω can mean "to free"?

Post by jswilkmd »

The purpose of the exercises is that you will learn Greek. You've done a word study to determine why you believe that the answer in the answer key is somehow not quite right.

You've learned a lot of Greek in the process. Mission accomplished; I wouldn't worry too much about it otherwise.

What's the real diffence in English between save/rescue Greece and free Greece? Depends on the context.

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Re: Εvidence that σώζω can mean "to free"?

Post by Markos »

χαιρετε, ω persequor και jswilkmd ω φιλοι!

ει σῳζω τινα, εγω ποιῶ τουτον ελευθερον απο τινος. το σῳθηναι εστιν το ελευθερωθηναι.

ει τις σῳζει με, εγω ειμι ελευθερος εκ του θαντου και τε φοβου.

τί λεγετε περι τουτου. ειπετε μοι, παρκαλῶ, Ελληνιστι.

Μαρκος
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Re: Εvidence that σώζω can mean "to free"?

Post by jaihare »

Markos,

Is that the meaning of σῴζω in Attic, though? I think it's more of "convey someone safely to their destination, make them safe from dangers." I don't think it carried the Christian view of "saved" with it in Attic, and I really don't see it meaning "free someone from something else." I agree with the OP. This doesn't seem to be something that I would translate into Greek using σῴζω. Would you naturally use that word to translate the sentence in the OP?

Regards,
Jason

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Re: Εvidence that σώζω can mean "to free"?

Post by Markos »

χαιρε ω Ιασον. πως εχεις?

ευχαριστω σοι αποκρινομενῳ με.

φροντιζω οτι οι Ελληνες, νικησαντες τους Περσαιους, εσῳθησαν. επειτε ελευθεροι εγενοντο.

τί οι αλλοι λεγουσιν περι τουτο?
οὐ μανθάνω γράφειν, ἀλλὰ γράφω τοῦ μαθεῖν.

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Re: Εvidence that σώζω can mean "to free"?

Post by calvinist »

Markos wrote:
τί οι αλλοι λεγουσιν περι τουτο?
I think you mean περι τουτου? But I commend you for writing your responses in Greek. I don't think I'm quite at that level yet! :D
Markos wrote:ει σῳζω τινα, εγω ποιῶ τουτον ελευθερον απο τινος. το σῳθηναι εστιν το ελευθερωθηναι.
I think this is a valid point. It's not really a question of whether Greek specifically ties the notion of "being saved" with "being freed from something", but isn't that a basic notion that all cultures/languages would have? "Being saved" implies some sort of danger or need, whether physical, spiritual, emotional, etc., so "being freed from ____" is really another way of saying the same thing. I would think that this notion is cross-linguistic. I'm not saying that σωζω means literally "to be freed from"; I really don't understand why ελευθεροω isn't used though.

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Re: Εvidence that σώζω can mean "to free"?

Post by Markos »

εγραψεν ὁ Καλουινιστης
I would think that this notion is cross-linguistic.
συμφημι. εγω λεγω το αυτο. συ γραφεις σαφως και τε σοφως.

αι σημασιαι ου μεν γινονται εκ των λογων, αλλα οι λογοι εκ των σημασιων.

ερρωσο.
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Re: Εvidence that σώζω can mean "to free"?

Post by calvinist »

Markos wrote:
αι σημασιαι ου μεν γινονται εκ των λογων, αλλα οι λογοι εκ των σημασιων.
Exactly... different words, but they express essentially the same thing in this context.

A perfect example is the fact that we are communicating back and forth partially in Classical Greek, partially in English. This doesn't hinder the communication at all though, because αι σημασιαι are being passed back and forth from speaker to hearer, regardless of the specific λογοι οι εκλελεγομενοι, or in this case, even the specific γλωσσα. :D

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Re: Εvidence that σώζω can mean "to free"?

Post by jaihare »

Markos wrote:χαιρε ω Ιασον. πως εχεις?
ευχαριστω σοι αποκρινομενῳ με.
φροντιζω οτι οι Ελληνες, νικησαντες τους Περσαιους, εσῳθησαν. επειτε ελευθεροι εγενοντο.
τί οι αλλοι λεγουσιν περι τουτο?
χαῖρε, ὦ Μᾶρκε.
κἀγὼ εὐχαριστῶ σοι ταύτην τὴν ἀγγελίαν πρός με γράψαντι. :-)
I think that the difference is that "set free" (ἐλευθερόω) means "to release from servitude, bondage, chains, etc." That's how I would take it. However, "save" (σῴζω) means "to bring safely through trouble." That's how I see the difference, anyway. Maybe I'm wrong. We should really check LSJ, you know?
ἔρρωσο

P.S. I checked LSJ, and it seems that this is how both could be generalized. I really think that it must be a mistake in the book. I wouldn't devote too much energy to it.

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Re: Εvidence that σώζω can mean "to free"?

Post by Markos »

εγραψε ὁ Ιασων
We should really check LSJ, you know?
ουχι. δεῖ ημας μαλλον γενεσθαι ανθρωπινικα λεχικα. χρῶμενοι γαρ τοις λογοις, συνιημεν αυτους.

ων εν τῃ φυλακῃ, εγω προσευχομαι "σῳσον με," ω Κυριε. νυν το σῳζειν σημαινει το ελευθεροῖν.
I wouldn't devote too much energy to it.
καλως. συμφημι. πλην χαραν ειχον γραφων υμιν. ερρρωσθε.
οὐ μανθάνω γράφειν, ἀλλὰ γράφω τοῦ μαθεῖν.

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Re: Εvidence that σώζω can mean "to free"?

Post by persequor »

Χαιρετε οι φιλοι μου Markos, jswilkmd, jaihare, calvinist: ευχαριστω υμας σχολιων υμων. Νυν γινωσκω. Εγω λεγω το αυτο οτι λεγεις, ω Μαρκε.

Ερρωσθε· Γραψατωσαν μοι, παρακαλω, Ελληνιστι.

Persequor (Δεβένιος Δουλένιος εν ΣΧΟΛΗ) 8)

Μαρκε, ο Φωσφωρος του B-Greek ει;
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Re: Εvidence that σώζω can mean "to free"?

Post by Markos »

χαιρε και συ ω Δεβενιε/persequor. :D ναι, ουτος εγω, Φωσφορος Μαρκος. ασπαζομαι σε. αρα συ ετελεσας την σου μεταφρασιν του ευαγγελιου Ιωαννου? λεγω το DDV. :mrgreen:

ερρωσο.
οὐ μανθάνω γράφειν, ἀλλὰ γράφω τοῦ μαθεῖν.

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Re: Εvidence that σώζω can mean "to free"?

Post by persequor »

και εγω ασπαζομαι σε, ω Μαρκε. εχαρην μεγαλως δεχεσθαι την επιστολην σου· :D
πως εξεις; εχω καλως.

Markos wrote:αρα συ ετελεσας την σου μεταφρασιν του ευαγγελιου Ιωαννου? λεγω το DDV. :mrgreen:


μονος μενουσι μεταφρασειν τὰ κεφάλαια και ὁι στίχοι 18:28-40, 19:1-16a, και 19:28-42. γραψω σε πολλοι εν λωγω ακριβος [? private message]. :mrgreen:

ερρωσο,
Δεβένιος
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Carpe diem!-Poēta Rōmānus Horātius, Carmina (Odes), a.C. XXIII/DCCXXXI A.U.C.
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Re: Εvidence that σώζω can mean "to free"?

Post by Markos »

χαιρε ω Δεβενιε!

μακαριος εγω οτι συ απεκρινω με Ελληνιστι. αγαπω γραφων Ελληνιστι εν Τεχτκιτ δια τα μεγαλα γραμματα.

γραφε εμοι ωδε

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=10710&start=80

ειδον εν Β-Εβραιιστι οτι συ και θελεις γραφειν μετα των φιλων Εβραιιστι. καλον εστιν. πλην εγω ουκ οιδα την γλωσσαν Εβραιιστικην καλως.

νυν δει με υπαγειν. παλιν γραφω σοι. ερρωσο.
οὐ μανθάνω γράφειν, ἀλλὰ γράφω τοῦ μαθεῖν.

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Re: Εvidence that σώζω can mean "to free"?

Post by jaihare »

Markos wrote:ειδον εν Β-Εβραιιστι οτι συ και θελεις γραφειν μετα των φιλων Εβραιιστι. καλον εστιν. πλην εγω ουκ οιδα την γλωσσαν Εβραιιστικην καλως.
ואם זה נכון, אני אשמח להתכתב אִתך בעברית :)
εἰ τὸ ἐνθάδε λεγόμενον ἀκιρβές ἐστιν, χαιρήσω σοὶ ἑβραϊστὶ διαλέγεσθαι, ὦ Δεβένιε. δύναμαι ἐν ἐκείνῃ τῇ γλῶττᾳ καλῶς γράφειν.

Ἰάσων τοῦ Ἰωάννου

נ"ב: התכוונתי לומר שאני יכול לכתוב (ובמיוחד לדבר) הרבה יותר טוב בעברית מאשר ביוונית. בעבורי, השפה היוונית עדיין קשה מאוד. אם תצטרך עזרה בעברית, אל תהסס לפנות אליי. אני כאן לשירותך. :) ׳

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