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Pl. Ap. 31e-32a

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Pl. Ap. 31e-32a

Postby pster » Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:28 am

Going full throttle on the Greek (5hrs/day) and on verge of major breakthrough. :) I'm missing the precise sense of this bit though:


ἀλλ᾽ ἀναγκαῖόν ἐστι τὸν τῷ ὄντι μαχούμενον ὑπὲρ τοῦ δικαίου, καὶ εἰ μέλλει ὀλίγον χρόνον σωθήσεσθαι, ἰδιωτεύειν ἀλλὰ μὴ δημοσιεύειν.

Can somebody give me a gloss?

Thanks in advance.
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Re: Pl. Ap. 31e-32a

Postby IreneY » Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:11 am

It's "it is necessary for the truly fighting for justice/for what is right" in horrible English, "for him who truly fights for justice/for what is right" in English that makes sense :D
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Re: Pl. Ap. 31e-32a

Postby pster » Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:57 pm

So it seems you are translating ἀναγκαῖόν as though it were ἀνάγκη and thus suitable for the impersonal expression of necessity. Makes sense. But, why no mention of this by LJS? http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/mor ... ek#lexicon
Middle Liddell does list the latter with the former, but I thought that was just etymology rather than usage being indicated:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/mor ... ek#lexicon
What am I missing?
Thanks so much.

Update: I just see that my links don't point where they are supposed to(thanks perseus!). But I realized that there is the adjective also. But I'm still confused as to why there is more than one way to express necessity here. I'll check it out later. Off to the party! :D
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Re: Pl. Ap. 31e-32a

Postby IreneY » Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:20 pm

Choose for the results to be displayed in a new window to link to them, I think it worked for me :)

Anyway, I just checked and Middle Liddell says:
"2. [select] necessary, ἀναγκαῖόν [ἐστι], like ἀνάγκη ἐστί, c. inf., it is necessary to do a thing, Hdt., etc.; but, ἔνιαι τῶν ἀποκρίσεων ἀναγκαῖαι ποιεῖσθαι necessarily requiring to be made, Plat."

LSJ says :
"2. necessary (physically or morally), οὐκ ἀ. unnecessary (on its diff. senses in philosophy v. Arist.Metaph. 1015a20ff.), ἀ. [ἐστί] it is necessary to . . , S.Ph.1317, etc.;"

Seems clear enough to me but then I come to this already knowing the expression so it doesn't really count does it? :D

My head is full of wool right now so I may not be thinking straight but I think this (the impersonal expression that is) goes hand in hand with the impersonal expressions comprising of an adjective in -τέος + εστί (X must be done), but don't really mind me.
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Re: Pl. Ap. 31e-32a

Postby pster » Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:15 am

Thanks! I was at the end of a long session and I wasn't navigating Perseus very well. Yes, everything is right there in LSJ. I don't suppose you have Smyth number for the impersonal expressions in -τέος + εστί (X must be done)? Mastronarde has a number of impersonal expressions, but I can't seem to track down this one at the moment. I'm particularly interested in suffixes these days and especially (semantic) vocabulary building rules, so I'll see if can find some more discussion of this rule you mention.

Might as well ask it while I'm here. Where do you get the "truly" from? I assume it is somehow from τῷ ὄντι but I'm not seeing it. Perhaps your English isn't horrible enough! Can you make it horribler? :)
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Re: Pl. Ap. 31e-32a

Postby NateD26 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:56 am

Smyth sections about verbal adjectives in -τέος:

§425c
§471
§473

Personal construction with ἀναγκαῖος instead of the impersonal ἀναγκαῖον:
§1982a
Last edited by NateD26 on Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pl. Ap. 31e-32a

Postby pster » Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:10 pm

NateD26 wrote:Smyth sections about verbal adjectives in -τέος:

§425c
§471
§473

Personal construction with ἀναγκαῑος instead of the impersonal ἀναγκαῖον:
§1982a


I really wish you hadn't told me that!! I actually spent at least an hour if not three reading all about those damned verbal adjectives no less than two weeks ago!!!! :( Me and Greek are irrefutable proof that Chomsky is dead wrong about the existence of a universal grammar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Pl. Ap. 31e-32a

Postby NateD26 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:53 pm

pster wrote:Might as well ask it while I'm here. Where do you get the "truly" from? I assume it is somehow from τῷ ὄντι but I'm not seeing it. Perhaps your English isn't horrible enough! Can you make it horribler? :)

It took me a while to figure that one out when I first encountered it. LSJ mentions it in εἰμί A. III.
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Re: Pl. Ap. 31e-32a

Postby IreneY » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:42 pm

Nate's the best!

As for the verbal adjectives my mom taught me a pair that helped me remember them (we don't really have adjectives in -τέος anymore; only in fixed expressions and legalese :D )

διαβατός ο ποταμός = the river can be crossed
διαβατέος ο ποταμός = the river must be crossed
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Re: Pl. Ap. 31e-32a

Postby Interaxus » Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:32 am

pster:

Don't forget that you can always paste a Greek phrase or sentence into Google. In this particular case up pops, among other links, a Wikipedia article on Aristophanes containing your Sophocles quote + translation (+ some context):

ἀναγκαῖόν ἐστι τὸν τῷ ὄντι μαχούμενον ὑπὲρ τοῦ δικαίου, καὶ εἰ μέλλει ὀλίγον χρόνον σωθήσεσθαι, ἰδιωτεύειν ἀλλὰ μὴ δημοσιεύειν.[64]
"...he who will really fight for the right, if he would live even for a little while, must have a private station and not a public one.[65]

Here too :
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... ogy_(Plato)%3Fmatch%3Del+%E1%BC%80%CE%BD%CE%B1%CE%B3%CE%BA%CE%B1%E1%BF%96%CF%8C%CE%BD+%E1%BC%90%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B9+%CF%84%E1%BD%B8%CE%BD+%CF%84%E1%BF%B7+%E1%BD%84%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%B9+%CE%BC%CE%B1%CF%87%CE%BF%CF%8D%CE%BC%CE%B5%CE%BD%CE%BF%CE%BD&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&source=www.google.co.uk

I see this one also includes Socrates' famous take on 'the unexamined life not being worth living for a human being': ὁ δὲ ἀνεξέταστος βίος οὐ βιωτὸς ἀνθρώπῳ (Apology 38a). Cool Greeks! 8)

Cheers,
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Re: Pl. Ap. 31e-32a

Postby pster » Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:45 pm

Thanks Nate et. al. I didn't notice that you gave me the LSJ section. I was putting off reading through the whole entry for "to be"! I'm not sure that what they have to say τῷ ὄντι clears up "τῷ ὄντι". (Note the use mention distinction. :lol: ) Rather it just makes it official like. I'm going to just chalk it up as an idiom. But perhaps I'm just tired. Maybe someday when I'm in a more ontological frame of mind, I'll read that whole entry and then I'll be able to connect IIIA and the dative in particular with something else I know.
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