Textkit Logo

Pl. Ap. 33b1-2

Here's where you can discuss all things Ancient Greek. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get translation help and more!

Pl. Ap. 33b1-2

Postby NateD26 » Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:34 am


ἀλλ᾽ ὁμοίως καὶ πλουσίῳ καὶ πένητι παρέχω ἐμαυτὸν ἐρωτᾶν,
καὶ ἐάν τις βούληται ἀποκρινόμενος ἀκούειν ὧν ἂν λέγω.


Am I correct in reading the underlined participle as apodosis in this general present condition?

    ...and replying (I always reply) if anyone wants to hear whatever I say.
Nate.
NateD26
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 789
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:14 am

Re: Pl. Ap. 33b1-2

Postby modus.irrealis » Fri Sep 24, 2010 11:15 am

I take it as equivalent to ἐάν τις βούληται ἀκούειν ὧν ἂν λέγω καὶ ἀποκρίνεσθαι. That demands a less drastic word order and I think if your reading were intended, you would have a finite verb instead of the participle, because of the καί.
modus.irrealis
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1093
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:08 am
Location: Toronto

Re: Pl. Ap. 33b1-2

Postby NateD26 » Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:18 pm

Thanks, modus. I also think that if the participle were the protasis referring to Socrates,
wouldn't it be in the genitive case as μου, the implied object of ἀκούειν?
Nate.
NateD26
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 789
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:14 am

Re: Pl. Ap. 33b1-2

Postby modus.irrealis » Fri Sep 24, 2010 3:46 pm

Ah I think I misunderstood you -- I thought you meant something like καὶ ἐάν τις βούληται ἀποκρίνομαι ὧν ἂν λέγω which is what I meant by drastic word order with the main verb there.

NateD26 wrote:I also think that if the participle were the protasis referring to Socrates,
wouldn't it be in the genitive case as μου, the implied object of ἀκούειν?

Yes, and it would probably also change ὦν to ἄ -- I don't think the double genitive object construction is very common (it's also the reason I wouldn't say there's an implied object here but I can't prove that :D).

Just in case, let me mention that παρέχω ἐμαυτὸν ἐρωτᾶν here means "I offer myself to be asked". I thought it was a good example of a Greek active infinitive that sort of has a passive sense (at least from the English perspective), but I looked at the translation on perseus and they have "but I offer myself alike to rich and poor; I ask questions, and whoever wishes may answer and hear what I say" which I'm sure is wrong. Jowett has "but anyone, whether he be rich or poor, may ask and answer me and listen to my words" which is my understanding as well.
modus.irrealis
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1093
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:08 am
Location: Toronto

Re: Pl. Ap. 33b1-2

Postby NateD26 » Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:19 pm

modus.irrealis wrote:Yes, and it would probably also change ὦν to ἄ -- I don't think the double genitive object construction is very common (it's also the reason I wouldn't say there's an implied object here but I can't prove that ).

ἀκούειν ᾧν ἂν λέγω seemed at first natural seeing this relative clause occurred frequently so far, but never
in such attraction that "the thing heard" is in gen. as well. Now, I see in LSJ that it can happen, just not
as often, like you said.

modus.irrealis wrote:Just in case, let me mention that παρέχω ἐμαυτὸν ἐρωτᾶν here means "I offer myself to be asked". I thought it was a good example of a Greek active infinitive that sort of has a passive sense (at least from the English perspective), but I looked at the translation on perseus and they have "but I offer myself alike to rich and poor; I ask questions, and whoever wishes may answer and hear what I say" which I'm sure is wrong. Jowett has "but anyone, whether he be rich or poor, may ask and answer me and listen to my words" which is my understanding as well.

My Hebrew commentary also took ἀποκρινόμενος as referring to Socrates, as I answer. It doesn't add up with the grammar but
then again, if he offer himself to be asked (I also thought it was an inf. of purpose), why would the person asking be answering?
Nate.
NateD26
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 789
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:14 am

Re: Pl. Ap. 33b1-2

Postby modus.irrealis » Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:48 pm

NateD26 wrote:It doesn't add up with the grammar but
then again, if he offer himself to be asked (I also thought it was an inf. of purpose), why would the person asking be answering?

I think that's the point of the καί. He'll talk to anyone, rich or poor, and let them ask him questions, but with the condition that they're willing to hear what he says and reply, i.e., participate in his Socratic method. I think Socrates would disclaim the idea that he would simply provide his own answers and just want people to listen to them.
modus.irrealis
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1093
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:08 am
Location: Toronto

Re: Pl. Ap. 33b1-2

Postby medea » Fri Sep 24, 2010 11:44 pm

But I'm rather agree with the translation of Perseus, here's my raison:
ἐάν τις βούληται ἀποκρινόμενος ἀκούειν ὧν ἂν λέγω

ἀποκρινόμενος is part.nom, so it refere the same subject of verb βούληται as τις in this clause. no?

In this case, Socrates offre himself as a role for asking, and he wants someone to answer his question then hear what he'll say. This is a proposition of dialectics where one play the role asking and other answering......it works.....at least according to grammar....no~

But my teacher told me once that the hebrew version is more correct....SO.....wait other explication....
medea
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 4:03 pm

Re: Pl. Ap. 33b1-2

Postby medea » Sat Sep 25, 2010 12:28 am

modus.irrealis wrote: I thought it was a good example of a Greek active infinitive that sort of has a passive sense (at least from the English perspective)


I wonder if there're other examples to support this explication?
medea
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 4:03 pm

Re: Pl. Ap. 33b1-2

Postby modus.irrealis » Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:35 pm

medea wrote:
modus.irrealis wrote: I thought it was a good example of a Greek active infinitive that sort of has a passive sense (at least from the English perspective)


I wonder if there're other examples to support this explication?

What's really going on is that the indirect objects of παρέχω are the subjects of the infinitive, so it really is active. But with the same verb
ἀναγκάζειν τε αὑτὸν καὶ τοὺς ἄλλους μὴ ἀποδειλιᾶν ἀλλὰ παρέχειν μύσαντα εὖ καὶ ἀνδρείως ὥσπερ τέμνειν καὶ κάειν ἰατρῷ = as offering oneself to a doctor to be cut and burnt
ὁ θεράπων ἑαυτὸν τοῖς τυμβωρύχοις παρέσχε περιδύειν = the slave offered himself to these robbers to be stripped
οὐδ’ ἔστιν ὅπου ἑαυτὸν ὑμῖν τάξαι παρέσχεν = there is no occasion where he offered himself to you to be ordered

I don't want to make this a translation issue -- my only point is that in such constructions it's the indirect object of παρέχω that is the subject of the infinitive, and that's why I think Socrates is saying that he offers himself for the others to question him.
modus.irrealis
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1093
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:08 am
Location: Toronto


Return to Learning Greek

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot] and 31 guests