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Translation query.

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Translation query.

Postby peripatein » Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:27 am

Dear Members,

Which of the following translations would be inapplicable to the following phrase -
"are we to kill all those who plotted against us?"

(A) ἀποκτείνωμεν πάντας (τούτους) γ᾽οὕστινας ἡμῖν ἐβούλευσαν;
(B) ἀποκτείνωμεν πάντας γ᾽οὕς ἡμῖν ἐβούλευσαν;
(C) οὕστινας βουλεύοιεν ἡμῖν, πάντας γε τοιούτους ἀποκτείνωμεν;

Sincerely,

Yuval.
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Re: Translation query.

Postby NateD26 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:25 am

Doesn't οὕστινας suggest indefiniteness, all those whomever...?
With the addition of τοιούτους, you've modified these indefinite people further, all the sort of men, whomever....

I do not know much but I think It depends whether by all those who plotted against us you know the identity of the specific people
who plotted, or you only have a general idea as to their number or quality. If the former, (B) seems to be the best choice; if the latter,
(A) or (C) accordingly.

However, I'd wait for others to weigh in. :)
Nate.
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Re: Translation query.

Postby peripatein » Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:42 am

I presume the following may also be valid -

ἀποκτείνωμεν πάντας (τούτους) γε βουλεύσαντας ἡμῖν;

Yet I'd very much like to receive comments on each of the three previously proposed.

Sincerely,

Yuval.
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Re: Translation query.

Postby NateD26 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:58 am

peripatein wrote:I presume the following may also be valid -

ἀποκτείνωμεν πάντας (τούτους) γε βουλεύσαντας ἡμῖν;

I think the original relative clause is commonly converted into the participle with an article (the meaning can be
either definite or indefinite).
Nate.
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Re: Translation query.

Postby cb » Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:29 pm

hi, just a few points:

1. the relative should be put in the case required for the clause in which it stands (see smyth s2501). In your relative clause it needs to be nominative because it represents the subject of the 3p pl verb. by putting it in the accusative, it looks as if you are attracting the case of the relative from nominative (i.e. from its required case within its phrase) into the case of object of the main clause ἀποκτείνωμεν (i.e. into the accusative). however it’s very rare for a nominative relative to be attracted into another case (see smyth s2523), and ὅστις is only attracted in the construction οὐδεὶς ὅστις οὐ (see smyth ss2524 and 2534). so here you should put the relative in the nominative, not the accusative.

2. the 3p pl verb should be formed from ἐπιβουλεύω, not βουλεύω.

3. as ἡμῖν is in a dependent clause I would put it in the indirect reflexive form ἡμῖν αὐτοῖς, as it refers back to the subject of the main clause ἀποκτείνωμεν (see smyth ss 329 and 1225). see isocrates’ panegyricus s106 for an e.g. of this: τοιαῦτ᾽ ἔχοντες ταῖς ὀλιγαρχίαις ἐπιτιμᾶν καὶ πλείω τούτων, τὴν αὐτὴν πολιτείαν ἥνπερ παρ᾽ ἡμῖν αὐτοῖς καὶ παρὰ τοῖς ἄλλοις κατεστήσαμεν.

4. after πάντας, I would have expected a simple relative (such as ὅσοι) referring to the definite persons referred to by πάντας, as in thucydides s4.57.4: καὶ τούτους μὲν οἱ Ἀθηναῖοι ἐβουλεύσαντο καταθέσθαι ἐς τὰς νήσους, καὶ τοὺς ἄλλους Κυθηρίους οἰκοῦντας τὴν ἑαυτῶν φόρον τέσσαρα τάλαντα φέρειν, Αἰγινήτας δὲ ἀποκτεῖναι πάντας ὅσοι ἑάλωσαν διὰ τὴν προτέραν αἰεί ποτε ἔχθραν, Τάνταλον δὲ παρὰ τοὺς ἄλλους τοὺς ἐν τῇ νήσῳ Λακεδαιμονίους καταδῆσαι.

5. just a question: in your translation (C), are you treating ἀποκτείνωμεν as aorist, and putting the dependent verb in the optative to make an indefinite construction in historic sequence, of the type described in s21(2)(b) on page 14 of sidgwick’s intro to greek prose comp (available on this site)?

cheers, chad :)
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Re: Translation query.

Postby panel123 » Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:09 pm

Doesn't οὕστινας suggest indefiniteness? or i think it is.

"are we to kill all those who plotted against us?"
.Why we need to kill all those people?? :D
i think it depends on the people who plotted against us.
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Re: Translation query.

Postby rums.grg » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:21 pm

I'm a novice and I would suggest "C" ? Sorry if I'm wrong!!
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