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paragraph of Severian

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paragraph of Severian

Postby COPLAND 3 » Sat May 01, 2010 10:18 pm

Here is a paragraph that would be a big help for a project that I am working on, it comes from an ancient Christian author by the name of Severian of Gabala. He is commenting on 1 Thessalonians 1:3 "remembering your work of faith, and hardship, and charity, and enduring hope, in our Lord Jesus Christ, before God our Father." Your alls help has been wonderful and has played a very helpful part in what I have been working on. If somebody of some others can take a crack at this it would be greatly appreciated. Here is the link to the spot that it is located, I hope I did not cause any typos, http://www.archive.org/stream/catenaegr ... 4/mode/2up

και η μεν πιστος εγειρει προς καματους, η δε αγαπη επιμενειν ποιει τοις πονοις. "εμπροσθεν του Θεου και "Πατρος ημων," ινα ειπη οτι αρεσκοντες τω Θεω ταυτα ποιειτε, ωστε φανηναι Θεου αρεσκειαν την επι τον Χριστον πιστιν και την περι αυτον διαθεσιν. και της υπομονης, φησιν. ου γαρ προς ενα χρονον ο διωγμος εκεινος, αλλα δια παντος. ταυτα τοινυν, φησι, παντα απο πιστεως ποιειτε και ελπιδος. ωστε ου την ανδρειαν αυτων μονον εδηλου τα γινομενα, αλλ οτι και μετα πληροφοριας επιστευον τοις αποκειμενοις επαθλοις· δια γαρ τουτο συνεχωρει ο Θεος ευθεως γινεσθαι διωγμους, ινα το θερμον αυτων δειχθη, και οτι ου πεισμονη ανθρθπινη, αλλα Θεου δυναμις ην, η τας των πιστευοντων ψυχας πειθουσα, ωστε και προς θανατους μυριους παρεσκευασθαι· υπερ ουκ αν ην, ει μη ευθεως κατα βαθος το κηρυγμα πεπηγει, κι εστηκεν ακλινες.
Last edited by COPLAND 3 on Sun May 02, 2010 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: paragraph of Severian

Postby COPLAND 3 » Sun May 02, 2010 1:35 am

If anyone has the time or desire I would love to get this one too from Theodore of Mopsuestia for 1 Thess 1:9-10

Αλλος φησι· "λογον Κυριου," ενταυθα ου την πιστιν λεγει· ου γαρ η πιστις απ αυτων ελαβε την αρχην, αλλ αντι του παντες εγνωσαν οσα υπερ της πιστεως επαθετε, και παντες υμων το βεβαιον θαυμαζουσι της πιστεως, ωστε και προτροπην ετεροις γενεσθαι τα υμετερα· επισημαντεον δε, φησιν, οτι εν τη των ειδωλων αναχωρησει τον Θεον και ζωντα και αληθινον προσειπεν προς αντιδιαστολην εκεινων, ωστε οπου ποτ αν την θωνην ευρισκομεν ταυτην, ειδεναι χρη οτι μητε επι Πατρος εις αναιρεσιν λεγεται Υιου, μητε εφ Υιου εις αναιρεσιν Πατρος, ομοιως αληθινιου Πατρος και Υιου παρα τοις ευσεβεσιν.
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Re: paragraph of Severian

Postby NateD26 » Tue May 04, 2010 9:30 am

Well, I'll try even though I'm not certain in my translation, but seeing that no one has posted any reply yet,
let me just throw it out there and see if others would offer their suggestions/corrections.

I'll begin with the second passage. The first few lines of it seem to refer to 6-8; the rest to 9-10:

ἄλλος φησί· "λόγον Κυρίου," ἐνταῦθα οὐ τὴν πίστιν λέγει·
Someone else says: "the word of our Lord," does not mean faith here;

οὐ γὰρ ἡ πίστις ἀπ᾿ αὐτῶν ἔλαβε τὴν ἀρχήν, ἀλλ᾿ ἀντὶ τοῦ πάντες ἔγνωσαν ὅσα ὑπὲρ τῆς πίστεως ἐπάθετε, καὶ πάντες ὑμῶν τὸ βέβαιον θαυμάζουσι τῆς πίστεως, ὥστε καὶ προτροπὴν ἑτέροις γένεσθαι τὰ ὑμέτερα·
For faith didn't take their origin from them, but is in place of everything they came to know, how much you suffered in the name of faith, and many of you marvel at the firmness of faith,
inasmuch as that which is yours becomes as a driving force in different ways.

ἐπισημαντέον δὲ, φησὶν, ὅτι ἐν τῇ τῶν εἰδώλων ἀναχωρήσει τὸν Θεὸν καὶ ζῶντα καὶ ἀληθινὸν προσεῖπεν πρὸς ἀντιδιαστολὴν ἐκείνων, ὥστε ὅπου πότ᾿ ἂν τὴν φωνὴν εὑρίσκομεν ταύτην, εἰδέναι χρῆ ὅτι μήτε ἐπὶ Πατρὸς εἰς ἀναίρεσιν λέγεται Υἱοῦ, μήτε ἐφ᾿ Υἱοῦ εἰς ἀναίρεσιν Πατρός, ὁμοίως ἀληθινοῦ Πατρὸς καὶ Υἱοῦ παρὰ τοῖς εὐσεβέσιν.
But one must signify, he says, that in the retreat from idols he addressed God both as living and as true for a distinction from those idols, so that wherever we might find at some time this saying, it is necessary to know that it is said neither on the Father in regard to a confutation of his Son, nor on the Son in regard to a confutation of his Father, equally true are Father and Son in the eyes of those who are pious.
Nate.
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Re: paragraph of Severian

Postby NateD26 » Tue May 04, 2010 9:44 am

In the first passage, I do not know why it is plpf without augment, πεπήγει and not ἐπεπήγει,
and why ἔστηκεν, the pf, and not the plpf ἐστήκει/εἰστήκει, is used in this contrary-to-fact condition.
I've translated both of these active verbs as intransitive with passive sense. see LSJ.

καὶ ἡ μὲν πίστις ἐγείρει πρὸς καμάτους, ἡ δὲ ἀγαπὴ ἐπιμένειν ποιεῖ τοῖς πόνοις.
And while faith stirs up towards toils, love causes to endure with labors.

"ἔμπροσθεν τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ "Πατρὸς ἡμῶν," ἵνα εἴπῃ ὅτι ἀρέσκοντες τῷ Θεῷ ταῦτα ποιεῖτε, ὥστε φανῆναι Θεοῦ ἀρέσκειαν τὴν ἐπὶ τὸν Χριστὸν πίστιν καὶ τὴν περὶ αὐτὸν διάθεσιν.
"Before God and 'our father'," so that he may say that you are doing this having pleased God, so as to be made out that faith unto Christ and the disposition for him is obsequiousness to God.

καὶ τῆς ὑπομονῆς, φησίν. οὐ γὰρ πρὸς ἕνα χρόνον ὁ διωγμὸς ἐκεῖνος, ἀλλὰ διὰ παντός. ταῦτα τοίνυν, φησὶ, πάντα ἀπὸ πίστεως ποιεῖτε καὶ ἐλπίδος.
And "patience/steadfastness," he says. For that persecution is not for a single period of time, but is forever. Well then, all these, he says, you are doing from faith and hope.

ὥστε οὐ τὴν ἀνδρείαν αὐτῶν μόνον ἐδήλου τὰ γινόμενα, ἀλλ᾿ ὅτι καὶ μετὰ πληροφορίας ἐπίστευον τοῖς ἀποκειμένοις ἐπάθλοις·
Therefore, he was showing not only their courage with regard to these events, but also that they were putting their faith with certainty in the out-of-sight rewards;

διὰ γὰρ τοῦτο συνεχώρει ὁ Θεὸς εὐθέως γίνεσθαι διωγμοὺς, ἵνα μή τις εἴπῃ ὅτι ἁπλῶς καὶ κολακείᾳ τὸ κήρυγμα συνίστατο, καὶ ἵνα τὸ θερμὸν αὐτῶν δειχθῇ, καὶ ὅτι οὐ πεισμονὴ ἀνθρωπίνη, ἀλλὰ Θεοῦ δύναμις ἦν, ἡ τὰς τῶν πιστευόντων ψυχὰς πείθουσα, ὥστε καὶ πρὸς θανάτους μυρίους παρεσκευάσθαι·
For because of this, God immediately allowed persecution to happen, (namely) so that no one would say that the preaching arose simply and with flattery; and so that it would be shown during their fever, because it was also not a human persuasion, but a miracle of God, one that persuades the souls of the believers, so as to prepare themselves for countless deaths.

ὅπερ οὐκ ἂν ἦν, εἰ μὴ εὐθέως κατὰ βάθος τὸ κήρυγμα πεπήγει, καὶ ἕστηκεν ἀκλινές.
That would not be just so, had the preaching not been fixed in a descending scale, and had been (instead) set up unswervingly.
Nate.
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Re: paragraph of Severian

Postby modus.irrealis » Wed May 05, 2010 3:46 pm

NateD26 wrote:οὐ γὰρ ἡ πίστις ἀπ᾿ αὐτῶν ἔλαβε τὴν ἀρχήν, ἀλλ᾿ ἀντὶ τοῦ πάντες ἔγνωσαν ὅσα ὑπὲρ τῆς πίστεως ἐπάθετε, καὶ πάντες ὑμῶν τὸ βέβαιον θαυμάζουσι τῆς πίστεως, ὥστε καὶ προτροπὴν ἑτέροις γένεσθαι τὰ ὑμέτερα·
For faith didn't take their origin from them, but is in place of everything they came to know, how much you suffered in the name of faith, and many of you marvel at the firmness of faith,
inasmuch as that which is yours becomes as a driving force in different ways.

I don't think it's possible to take πάντες with ἀντί -- this τοῦ is strange but I think it has to be the later Greek form of αὐτοῦ so it would be ἀλλ' ἀντ' αὐτοῦ = "but instead" or "but rather". I think from the context it makes more sense to take ὐμῶν as going with βέβαιον or maybe even πίστεως, something like "the firmness of your faith". I read the last bit as "so that your acts* have become an encouragement for others." (* I'm not really sure exactly what ὑμετέρα refers to.)
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