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Paragraph

Postby COPLAND 3 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:45 am

I know that this is a lenghty paragraph, but I am hoping that I can get as much of this translated as possible. It is an extract from a commentary on 2 Thessalonians 2:4-5 by Theodore of Mopsuestia. Hopefully there are no typos, but here is a bookmarked link to the spot in an ancient catena, it starts at the very bottom of page 386, with the heading ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΥ http://www.archive.org/stream/catenaegr ... 6/mode/2up

This will serve as a very helpful insight to a project that I am working on, so translating it won't go to waste, I assure you! Thanks!


Δια τουτου δεικνυσιν οτι την ειδωλολατρειαν, ην ο διαβολος συνεστησατο, αυτος ελθων ανατρεπει, και πασαν αιρεσιν ην αντεθηκε τω λογω της αληθειας, αυτος ελθων παραλυει. ινα και εν τουτω το κριμα εχωσιν οι ανθρωποι, οτι τα εφ οις επλανηθησαν, ουκ αυτοι καθειλον, αλλ ο πλανων αυτους. ταυτας γαρ τας πλανας α κατα μερος συνεστησατο ο διαβολος, αφιστων του Θεου, και ηρεμα την εαυτου προσκυνησιν αντεισαγων, ιν' οταν μετα ταυτα ελθη, προητοιμασμενα ευρηκως κα πεπλανημενους τους ανθρωπους, και εκτος οντας του Θεου της βοηθειας, ευχερως εαυτω δοξη κατορθουν το σπουδαξομενον, τουτεστι το προσκυνηθηναι αυτον παρα παντων ανθρωπων. ως γαρ υποσκευη αψιδος, ουτως αι αιρεσεις, αι τε παρ' Ελλησι και αι παρα τοις Χρισιανοις, τω διαβολω; ωσπερ δε αψιδος σφιγγεισης και λαβουσης την οικειαν κατασκευην, η υποσκευη αιρεται, μενει δε μονη η αψις στερρα; αουτως ο διαβολος τας αιρεσεις τας πολλας και τας της πλανης οδους αντι υποσκευης υπεθηκεν, ωσπερ αψιδα, μεγιστην την εαυτου προσκυνησιν προκατασκευαζων, ιν οταν ελθη εκδικων πασας τας αιρεσεις, κι αυτος καταργει, γυμνην την εαυτου προσκυνησιν εισωγων ανθρωποις.
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Re: Paragraph

Postby NateD26 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:40 pm

I'll give it a try. one thing to note about σφιγγείσης: in Severianus Scr. Eccl., Fragmenta in epistulam ii ad Thessalonicenses (in catenis)
Page 334,col2, line 6
the quote has the form I was familiar with, σφιγχθείσης, the passive aor. f. gen. sg. participle of σφίγγω.

ΘΕΟΔΏΡΟΥ. Διὰ τούτου δείκνυσιν ὅτι τὴν εἰδωλολατρείαν, ἣν ὁ διάβολος συνεστήσατο, αὐτὸς ἐλθὼν ἀνατρέπει, καὶ πᾶσαν αἵρεσιν ἣν ἀντέθηκε τῷ λόγῳ τῆς ἀληθείας, αὐτὸς ἐλθὼν παραλύει· ἵνα καὶ ἐν τούτῳ τὸ κρίμα ἔχωσιν οἱ ἄνθρωποι, ὅτι τὰ ἐφ᾿ οἷς ἐπλανήθησαν, οὐκ αὐτοὶ καθεῖλον, ἀλλ᾿ ὁ πλανῶν αὐτούς.

From this it shows that he, having come, overturns idolatry, which the Devil introduced, and having come, he puts an end to every sect which opposed the word of truth; so that even in this case humankind will have judging, because they hadn't seized themselves the matters on which they were deceived, but he who deceived them [had].


ταύτας γὰρ τὰς πλάνας ἃ κατὰ μέρος συνεστήσατο ὁ διάβολος, ἀφιστῶν τοῦ θεοῦ, καὶ ἡμέρα τὴν ἑαυτοῦ προσκύνησιν ἀντεισάγων, ἵν᾿ ὅταν μετὰ ταῦτα ἔλθῃ, προητοιμασμένα εὑρηκὼς καὶ πεπλανημένους τοὺς ἀνθρώπους, καὶ ἐκτὸς ὄντας τοῦ θεοῦ τῆς βοηθείας, εὐχερῶς ἑαυτῷ δόξῃ κατορθοῦν τὸ σπουδαζόμενον, τουτέστι τὸ προσκυνηθῆναι αὐτὸν παρὰ πάντων ἀνθρώπων.

For the Devil introduced these deceits which are severally, renouncing God, and a day introducing in turn his own adoration, so that whenever he goes after these events, (namely) finding preparations for his purpose and the men having been deceived, and being far from God's help, he may recklessly think to himself that he seriously succeeded, that is to say being respected as one (a successful/accomplished being) by all men.


ὡς γὰρ ὑποσκευὴ ἁψῖδος, οὕτως αἱ αἱρέσεις, αἵ τε παρ᾿ Ἕλλησι καὶ αἱ παρὰ τοῖς Χριστιανοῖς, τῷ διαβόλῳ· ὥσπερ δὲ ἁψῖδος σφιγχθείσης καὶ λαβούσης τὴν οἰκείαν κατασκευὴν, ἡ ὑποσκευὴ αἴρεται, μένει δὲ μόνη ἡ ἁψὶς στερρά· οὕτως ὁ διάβολος τὰς αἱρέσεις τὰς πολλὰς καὶ τὰς τῆς πλάνης ὁδοὺς ἀντὶ ὑποσκευῆς ὑπέθηκεν, ὥσπερ ἁψῖδα, μεγίστην τὴν ἑαυτοῦ προσκύνησιν προσκατασκευάζων, ἵν᾿ ὅταν ἔλθῃ ἐκδικῶν πάσας τὰς αἱρέσεις, καὶ αὐτὸς καταργεῖ, γυμνὴν τὴν ἑαυτοῦ προσκύνησιν εἰσάγων ἀνθρώποις.

For as the foundation of a loop, so are the sects to the Devil, both in the Hellenics' hands and the Christians' hands; and just as, upon having the loop bound tight and taking the house as fixture, the foundation is raised up, and the loop alone remains solid; so the Devil proposed before the many sects as well the ways of deceit in place of a foundation, just as if it were a loop, fortifying in advance his own adoration as the greatest, so that whenever he goes punishing all the sects, and himself rendering idle, he introduces to people his own adoration as bare.
Last edited by NateD26 on Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Paragraph

Postby IreneY » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:26 pm

Hey Nate!

Are you sure about the overall meaning? It seems to me that it says that the devil himself will, when he pretends to be god, demolish all the heresies and whathaveyou (so that the men will have the extra sin of not doing it themselves) since he won't be needing them anymore (same as when you are making an arch and when the construction of the house is complete you don't need the things holding it up and you take them away etc etc)
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Re: Paragraph

Postby NateD26 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:43 pm

Hi, Ireney.

To be honest, I've tried to read my attempted translation over and over and I couldn't understand how it related to the passage from 2 Thessalonian 2.
It was obviously due to my errors in translation.

Can you please write down your own translation?
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Re: Paragraph

Postby IreneY » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:42 pm

Hey,

I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm not very well versed in theological matters after all. Anyway, I couldn't find more than a general connection with the passage either. Anyway, here's my translation (on the fly as usual :D Sorry, a bit busy lately)

By this it is shown that idolatry, which the devil introduced/constructed, he (the devil) will topple/end having come (after he comes/arrives), and every heresy/cult which he put forth to oppose the truth, he (the devil) will cripple having come (after he comes/arrives).
So that this sin will also be on the humans (so that humans will be also burdened by this sin), that those (ideas) they were misled from, they didn't topple/destroy/whatever themselves, but he who misled them (that they weren't the ones to discredit/throw away the ideas/heresies that misled/deceived them but the one who misled them in the first place).
(The next part needs more care than I have time to put into it I'm afraid. My apologies)
For these deceptions/deceits which the devil put together/created in detail, renouncing God, and slyly(?) putting his worship in the place of God's worship, so when, after these events, he comes, having found everything ready and the humans deceived and being outside God's help, he can easily (as he will think ? I'm being extremely thick today) accomplish his plan, i.e. being worshiped by all humans.
For the same relation exists between an arch and its scaffolding and between the heresies that exist among the Hellenes and among the Christians and the devil (as with one so with the other kind of construction). That is, just as when an arch is tightened(?) and gets the ??? (don't have a clue about how arches are supposed to be constructed. In any language. The meaning is clear to me though: When the arch is completed and can stand on its "own", as part of the house), the scaffolding is removed, and the arch stands alone, solid, the same way the devil has put the many heresies and deceptions in the place/instead of scaffolding, like in an arch, pre-creating (or perhaps "shoring up"?) his worship as the biggest thing (?) [again the building theme defies me], so when he comes punishing all the heresies, and he himself is idle (his work is done? I'm not sure I get this one), he will introduce his worship to the humans bare (by itself, with not frills or whatever).

Sorry for the poor quality but I hope the meaning comes through. If it's the right one that is :mrgreen:
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Re: Paragraph

Postby COPLAND 3 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:48 pm

Nate, thanks for taking the time to do this, it does help, and I have been able to use your translation to provide a helpful excerpt to my catena, because the message behind it is that the Antichrist will wipe out every idolatrious sect in order to force everyone to worship him alone. The Satan is the founder of idolatry, and the Antichrist will not tolerate idol worship because he will not allow anyone to worship anything else but him. So in other words, all religions, even atheism, will not be tolerated by the Antichrist, only a devoted following to him. Your translation does relay that message, and I was able to glean what I need!
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Re: Paragraph

Postby COPLAND 3 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:53 pm

IreneY, thank you for your time too! I just noticed your translation.
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Re: Paragraph

Postby NateD26 » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:48 pm

Thanks, Ireney, for taking the time to submit your translation.
I think though that the subject of the main verbs in the first sentence, and that of the verb in the subordinate relative clause,
are not the same. Granted, being non-christian with no previous background other than trying to translate myself 2 Thessalonian 2:1-4,
and then comparing and correcting my errors with King James version (original edition), I know next to nothing regarding Christian theology,
but from Copland's post, and my friend Jason's help, It seems to me that "he will topple/cripple..." refers to the Antichrist which I guess
is not specifically named, but so in the text itself. "the man is revealed out of apostasy, the son out of perdition" to then pretend to be God
and "sit as one in the temple of God, proclaiming that he himself is God".
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Re: Paragraph

Postby COPLAND 3 » Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:20 pm

Nate, The Greek extract that you translated come from an ancient Bible catena published by JP Cramer, and that extract followed another one from an ancient Christian commentator named St. John Chrysostom who interpreted (as well as every other ancient expositor) the man of sin and son of perdition as being the Antichrist, so Theodore's comment was used to give further explanation, and used the personal pronoun 'he' as referring to the Antichrist.
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Re: Paragraph

Postby NateD26 » Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:55 pm

Thanks, Copland, for clearing that up. In the first paragraph I can understand to whom each verb refers:

From this it shows that he (the pseudo-God/Antichrist), upon coming, overturns idolatry, which the Devil introduced, and, upon coming, puts an end to every sect which he (the Devil) put forth to oppose the word of truth; so that in this case too humankind will have judging, because they hadn't seized themselves the matters on which they were deceived, but he who deceived them (namely the Antichrist) [had].

However, in the following paragraph I cannot understand who is the subject in ἵν᾿ ὅταν μετὰ ταῦτα ἔλθῃ, and εὐχερῶς ἑαυτῷ δόξῃ.
Is it the Antichrist who's coming, having deceived all the people, and thinking to himself that he is now worshiped as God by them all?
Or is it the Devil, who introduced these deceits in the first place, and is now proud to find the people deceived (by the Antichrist :?)?

Same in the final paragraph. does the subject in this clause goes back to the Antichrist?
ἵν᾿ ὅταν ἔλθῃ ἐκδικῶν πάσας τὰς αἱρέσεις, καὶ αὐτὸς καταργεῖ, γυμνὴν τὴν ἑαυτοῦ προσκύνησιν εἰσάγων ἀνθρώποις.
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Re: Paragraph

Postby modus.irrealis » Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:46 pm

I understand the confusion with the subjects because if I just read the passage by Theodore, my instinct is that it's the same subject. Even if the first paragraph, the αὐτός seems to me to be most naturally read as referring back to διάβολος.

It's possible that Theodore identified the devil and the antichrist in some way. I did find this where the footnote has "From the time of Theodore of Mopsuestia, many expositors have held that the Man of Lawlessness is practically an 'incarnation' of Satan", so this passage might very well reflect such an understanding.

Another possibility is that this lexicon (which I've found can be really useful for later Greek works) lists "antichrist" as one of the meanings of διάβολος. But I'm not sure this solves anything because it would then seem odd if it's saying that it was the antichrist who introduced all the heresies.
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Re: Paragraph

Postby NateD26 » Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:24 pm

modus.irrealis wrote:I understand the confusion with the subjects because if I just read the passage by Theodore, my instinct is that it's the same subject. Even if the first paragraph, the αὐτός seems to me to be most naturally read as referring back to διάβολος.

It's possible that Theodore identified the devil and the antichrist in some way. I did find this where the footnote has "From the time of Theodore of Mopsuestia, many expositors have held that the Man of Lawlessness is practically an 'incarnation' of Satan", so this passage might very well reflect such an understanding.


Do you mean that both αὐτός & ὁ διάβολος refer to an "incarnation of Satan"? or that αὐτός is Satan incarnate and ὁ διάβολος is the original Satan?
Either way, reading the passage with this definition in mind makes it very clear, especially the analogy to heresies & deceits as temporary foundation
to fortify an arch, his worship.

By the way, are you able to browse the entire book from your location? Is it only in the united states that this is possible?
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Re: Paragraph

Postby modus.irrealis » Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:33 pm

NateD26 wrote:Do you mean that both αὐτός & ὁ διάβολος refer to an "incarnation of Satan"? or that αὐτός is Satan incarnate and ὁ διάβολος is the original Satan?
Either way, reading the passage with this definition in mind makes it very clear, especially the analogy to heresies & deceits as temporary foundation
to fortify an arch, his worship.

I was just saying that grammatically it seemed more natural to me to take αὐτός as indicating that ὁ διάβολος is also the subject of the main verb there. I more hesitant to say what Theodore meant theologically, but it does seem less confusing to me if he means something like that.

By the way, are you able to browse the entire book from your location? Is it only in the united states that this is possible?

I'm able to browse a lot more of the book than is usual, but not all of it. I don't about the US for this book, but I have noticed that US google shows more in general -- in those cases I just use one of those proxy sites.
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