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translation of this

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translation of this

Postby COPLAND 3 » Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:37 am

This extract comes from Cramer's Catena on Acts 5:4, I was wondering if someone could give this a shot. Thanks!

Του Αγιου Αθανασιου εκ του προς Νατατιανους Ταγματος. Κατανοησαι δει και ενταυθα, οτι αρχη ην του κηρυγματος. και μεγα μεν ετολμησαν ουτοι, πειρασαι το Πνευμα το Αγιον επιχειρησαντες. μεγαλη δε και τοις αλλοις αδελθοις ωφελεια γεγονεν η τουτων τιμθρια. επαιδευθησαν γαρ και εδιδαχθησαν οτι ου δει κατα του Πνευματος του Αγιου τολμαν, ουδε πειρασαι τουτ' επιχειρειν.

It can be found here http://books.google.com/books?id=rAZFAA ... &q=&f=true
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Re: translation of this

Postby modus.irrealis » Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:00 pm

Hi,

The link was good because some of the letters were not transcribed correctly into text. Anyway, I understand it to mean

One must understand here as well, because it is the beginning of the teaching, and these people dared very much in trying to test the Holy Spirit. And their punishment has become a great aid for the other brethren. For they were educated and taught that one must not dare things against the Holy Spirit nor try to test it.

For the intro part telling you it's from Athanasius, I don't know what τάγμα might mean here, but an alternate source uses πραγματεία, which would then just mean

Saint Athanasius, from his treatise against the Nauatians (=Novatians??)
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Re: translation of this

Postby COPLAND 3 » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:34 pm

modus.irrealis,

Thank you very much! I really do appreciate it! I copied it while in a hurry, so I made some typos.

I will post some more as long as it does not bother people on here. It really contributes to a project that I am working on, which will serve as a patristic resource that will offer people some things that they won't find elsewhere.
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Re: translation of this

Postby COPLAND 3 » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:44 pm

This one is for Acts 5:8 and it is from this link http://books.google.com/books?id=rAZFAA ... &q=&f=true

Αμμωννιου. Το ερωτηθηναι και μη ομολογησαι το ιδιον πταισμα, αλλα και το εναντιον ζητειν λαθειν δι αρνησεως, ασυγγνωστον κακον. διο και επιφθανει ευθυς η τιμωρια. ουτως ευρισκομεν και επι του Καιν, ος ακουσας, "που εστιν Αβελ ο αδελφος σου·" ειπεν, "ουκ ιιδα." και λοιπον η καταρα μετα τουτα επιφθανει.
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Re: translation of this

Postby NateD26 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:16 am

I'm not sure but I think it's something of this sort. I hope I'll be corrected if need be.

EDIT: corrected my mistakes thanks to modus irrealis.

Being asked and not confessing one's own error, but even seeking the opposite, (namely) to escape notice through denial,
is an unpardonable evil; and therefore, retribution reaches at once. Thus we find as well in the case of Cane, who, upon hearing, "where is your
brother Abel?" said, "I do not know." and then, after these events, a curse attains him.
Last edited by NateD26 on Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: translation of this

Postby modus.irrealis » Thu Apr 01, 2010 2:50 am

I would translate μὴ ὁμολογῆσαι τὸ ἴδιον πταῖσμα as "not confessing one's own error."

Did you by any chance look at the previous paragraph? I wasn't sure if I got the first ὅτι right and whether it means "because" or whether it means "that" and goes with κατανοῆσαι.
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Re: translation of this

Postby NateD26 » Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:32 am

modus.irrealis wrote:I would translate μὴ ὁμολογῆσαι τὸ ἴδιον πταῖσμα as "not confessing one's own error."

I mistakenly thought the second inf. to be passive as well. thanks for the correction, modus. :)
I've also forgotten to translate the relative pron. in the relative clause. edited above.
modus.irrealis wrote:Did you by any chance look at the previous paragraph? I wasn't sure if I got the first ὅτι right and whether it means "because" or whether it means "that" and goes with κατανοῆσαι.

You are much more experienced than I am, but I think you right in saying ὅτι here goes with κατανοῆσαι to mean "that".
shouldn't it be "that it was the beginning of teaching"?
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Re: translation of this

Postby modus.irrealis » Thu Apr 01, 2010 2:01 pm

You're right, of course, that it should have been "was."
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Re: translation of this

Postby COPLAND 3 » Thu Apr 01, 2010 3:35 pm

Thank you all, I truly appreciate this!
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Re: translation of this

Postby COPLAND 3 » Thu Apr 01, 2010 3:52 pm

Here is one from Isodore on Acts 5:9

Ουκ απονοιας εστιν, ω φιλολογωσατε, ο κατα των πταισαντων φονος του σοφωτατου Πετρου, αλλα διδασκαλιας προγνωστικης, τα πολλα των ανθρωπων προιεμενης αμαρτηματα. τοτε γαρ αρξαμενοι τα του ευαγγελιου καταβαλλεσθαι σπερματα, και ευθυς παρανατειλαντα εωπρακοτες ζιζανια, σοφως αυτα παραχρημα εξετιλον. ινα μη τω σιτω συναχθεντα, τω μελλοντι προς καυσιν πυρι φυλαχθη.
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Re: translation of this

Postby NateD26 » Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:49 am

Perhaps you can share your translation (or attempt thereof) of this passage.

I understand the construction of the first sentence but that's as far as I can go. For instance, why is φόνος, murder, slaughter used here?
would it make more sense with φόβος, fear, the alt. version?
also, can προΐημι take double accusative, and if so, how would it be translated here?
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Re: translation of this

Postby modus.irrealis » Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:10 pm

Yeah, I can't make any sense of φόνος here at all, but even φόβος doesn't seem that appropriate.

I don't think it's a double accusative but just the verb coming inside the noun phrase so to speak, same with τὰ τοῦ εὐαγγελίου καταβάλλεσθαι σπέρματα in the next sentence.
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Re: translation of this

Postby NateD26 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:14 am

modus.irrealis wrote:I don't think it's a double accusative but just the verb coming inside the noun phrase so to speak, same with τὰ τοῦ εὐαγγελίου καταβάλλεσθαι σπέρματα in the next sentence.

I know this text was written centuries later, but is it common to interrupt in this manner
a noun phrase or an articular infinitive in Classical Greek as well?
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Re: translation of this

Postby modus.irrealis » Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:09 pm

I'd say it's very common -- at least it's something I had to adjust to, so I did notice it a lot. Not that it's necessarily difficult to understand -- I found it's just a matter of expecting it and usually it's matter of completing the noun phrase, like here τὰ πολλὰ τῶν ἀνθρώπων gets completed by ἁμαρτήματα and τὰ τοῦ εὐαγγελίου by σπέρματα, otherwise you'd have to fill in an implied noun from context.
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Re: translation of this

Postby NateD26 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:44 pm

Thank you, modus. :)

One definition of φόνος is death as a punishment (LSJ). Since my friend Jason explained to me the story in Acts 5,
and I've also read this chapter online, I think this is the most fitting translation. is it possible to translate genitive as from?
"The punishment by death from the wisest Peter against those who erred is not out of madness but out of prescient teaching,
that drives out the many transgressions of mankind."

EDITED.
Last edited by NateD26 on Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: translation of this

Postby NateD26 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:45 pm

I think the second sentence may be translated this way. I took ἑωρακότες as equivalent to εἰδότες and thus taking acc. with part.

"For at that time they began sowing the seeds of the gospel, and knowing that darnels appeared besides naturally,
they wisely plucked them out forthwith; it was taken care of by the future fire so as to burn lest they be gathered with the wheat."

Just using the "bad seed" metaphor... :|
Last edited by NateD26 on Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: translation of this

Postby modus.irrealis » Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:40 pm

NateD26 wrote:One definition of φόνος is death as a punishment (LSJ). Since my friend Jason explained to me the story in Acts 5,
and I've also read this chapter online, I think this is the most fitting translation.

That makes sense -- I had it in my head that φόνος was basically "murder" and wouldn't be used of Peter and I didn't even look for an alternate meaning.

is it possible to translate genitive as from?
"The punishment by death from the wisest Peter against those who erred is not out of madness but out of teaching of prescient,
letting go the many transgressions of mankind."

I understand the genitives the same way as you do, "it 'belonged' not to madness" = "it was not out of madness". I took προγνωστικῆς as modifying διδασκαλία "out of prescient teaching, that προίεται the many...". I'm often unsure with these prefixed μι-verbs since their meanings seem to cover a lot of ground, but it seems stronger to me than "let go", with the following sentence, perhaps even "drives out".

I think the second sentence may be translated this way. I took ἑωρακότες as equivalent to εἰδότες and thus taking acc. with part.

"For at that time they began sowing the seeds of the gospel, and knowing that darnels appeared besides naturally,
they wisely plucked them out forthwith; it being taken care of by the future fire so as to burn lest they not be gathered with the wheat."

I took it as meaning "see", so after they had sowed the seeds (I agree with you about the metaphor), they saw these darnels (I have no idea what a darnel is -- there all just weeds to me :D) rise up beside them, and plucked them out.

I understand the final sentence as "so that they would not be gathered together with the wheat and be protected from burning by the future fire." Again with a little mixing up of words, so φυλαχθῇ πρὸς καῦσιν τῷ μέλλοντι πυρί.
Last edited by modus.irrealis on Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: translation of this

Postby NateD26 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:49 pm

modus.irrealis wrote:I understand the final sentence as "so that they would not be gathered together with the wheat and be protected from burning by the future fire." Again with a little mixing up of words, so φυλαχθῇ πρὸς καύσιν τῷ μέλλοντι πυρί.

That makes much more sense. Thanks :)

P.S. Though I would like to know where I can find this definition of πρὸς + acc.
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Re: translation of this

Postby modus.irrealis » Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:25 pm

NateD26 wrote:P.S. Though I would like to know where I can find this definition of πρὸς + acc.

Technically here it should be "protected against" -- "from" just seemed more natural in English.
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Re: translation of this

Postby NateD26 » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:28 pm

Thanks. and just if you can clarify this for me, please:
if this is a negative purpose clause, it means that they, or at least Peter, wanted these "darnels" to be burnt by the coming fire, right?
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Re: translation of this

Postby modus.irrealis » Sun Apr 04, 2010 5:34 pm

NateD26 wrote:if this is a negative purpose clause, it means that they, or at least Peter, wanted these "darnels" to be burnt by the coming fire, right?

Yeah -- I can't see any other meaning.
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