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μέλω

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μέλω

Postby pster » Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:02 am

From Aplogy 24c. I don't understand how the final subordinate phrase works. I get the meaning, but I can't understand completely the function of the relative pronoun ὧν , the "nothing" οὐδὲν (which perplexes me more than any other word in greek!), the demonstrative τούτῳ, or the verb "to be a concern to" μέλω. Can somebody just line up the various objects and subjects for me?

ἐγὼ δέ γε, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, ἀδικεῖν φημι Μέλητον, ὅτι σπουδῇ χαριεντίζεται, ῥᾳδίως εἰς ἀγῶνα καθιστὰς ἀνθρώπους, περὶ πραγμάτων προσποιούμενος σπουδάζειν καὶ κήδεσθαι ὧν οὐδὲν τούτῳ πώποτε ἐμέλησεν:
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Re: μέλω

Postby cb » Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:49 am

hi, see section I.4 of the LSJ article on μέλω here, which explains the syntax of most of the clause you're referring to:
http://archimedes.fas.harvard.edu/cgi-b ... lter=CUTF8

ὧν stands for πραγμάτων, τούτῳ stands for Μελήτωι, and for οὐδέν (in the neuter acc., used as an adv.) see section III of the LSJ article on οὐδείς here:
http://archimedes.fas.harvard.edu/cgi-b ... lter=CUTF8

cheers, chad :)
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Re: μέλω

Postby pster » Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:05 am

So this is an impersonal construction? Why aorist? Why not present or imperfect?
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Re: μέλω

Postby Swth\r » Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:19 pm

Because the aorist has different verbal aspect from imperfect and it reffers to past, not to present.
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Re: μέλω

Postby pster » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:29 am

Swth\r wrote:Because the aorist has different verbal aspect from imperfect and it reffers to past, not to present.


When talking about a concern that someone has had over a long period in the past, it seems to me that the imperfect would have the appropriate aspect. The
aorist is more for singular actions or events. So I don't quite see your point.

If I'm right about that, and I may well be wrong, but if I am right about that, I would then ask whether it is possible that the οὐδὲν in the sense of "not once"
takes the concern and makes it singular (the "once") and brings in the aorist that way.
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Re: μέλω

Postby NateD26 » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:18 pm

I think the impersonal use specifically in the aorist and the addition of the adverb πώποτε
makes it very clear:

...about matters which to him (Meletos) there was not at all a concern ever yet.
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Re: μέλω

Postby Swth\r » Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:14 pm

pster wrote:
Swth\r wrote:Because the aorist has different verbal aspect from imperfect and it reffers to past, not to present.


When talking about a concern that someone has had over a long period in the past, it seems to me that the imperfect would have the appropriate aspect. The
aorist is more for singular actions or events. So I don't quite see your point.

If I'm right about that, and I may well be wrong, but if I am right about that, I would then ask whether it is possible that the οὐδὲν in the sense of "not once"
takes the concern and makes it singular (the "once") and brings in the aorist that way.


Ἀόριστος (χρόνος) in greek means "indefinite" (tense). What this tense really shows is something that occured in the past without expressing if this happened once or more times, for a while or for a longer period of time. The use of "οὐδέν" has nothing to do with it. It could also be used with an imperfect tense.

See, for example, in Smyth, § 1923:

'The aorist expresses the mere occurance of an action in the past. The action is regarded as an event of single fact without reference to the length of time it occupied.'

See also § 1927 about "complexive" or "concentrative" aorist... :wink:
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Re: μέλω

Postby pster » Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:23 am

I was going to find all occurrences in the Apology, but I can't make Perseus work well for me. There are two versions and it is so slow. I even wrote the President of Tufts about it, but nothing has changed. Do any of you guys make Perseus hum as far as searches like this go?
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Re: μέλω

Postby NateD26 » Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:16 am

I've used diogenes instead.

μέλει: 32d2,3
ἔμελεν: none
μέλον (neut. participle): 24d4
ἐμέλησεν: 24c8, 26b2 - both w/ πώποτε
μεμέληκεν: 24d9, 25c3 - identical phrase: οὐδέν σοι μ.

all with dative of person, all impersonal.
there are no other forms of this verb in the Apology.
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