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Chilon of Sparta (Athenaze p.61)

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Chilon of Sparta (Athenaze p.61)

Postby NateD26 » Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:24 pm

Hi.

I was wondering what this saying means:

ἐγγύα, πάρα δ᾿ ἄτη.

I try to make sense of it but cannot seem to get an understandable translation.

ἐγγύα is a contracted 2nd.s. imperative of ἐγγυάω, to give (one's hand) as a pledge.

ἄτη is nom.fem.s. meaning guilty rashness or mischief.

πάρα can´t be a preposition here because the only noun here is in nominative and even if it wasn't
nominative, this recessive accentuation requires the noun to precede the preposition rather than follow it.
and it can't be as adverb either because that one is still accented as παρά.

According to Smyth (§175b.), πάρα may stands for the impersonal πάρεστι, it is permitted,
but the sentence can't be impersonal and also, shouldn't an infinitive need to be a part of an impersonal construction?

I understand that overall it comes to warn us of rash pledging, but I can't figure out its exact translation.
Nate.
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Re: Chilon of Sparta (Athenaze p.61)

Postby modus.irrealis » Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:14 pm

The basic meaning of πάρειμι is "to be present", "to be at hand" and that's the meaning here (I'm not sure it can mean "permitted" exactly when used impersonally, but more like "possible"). About ἐγγύα I think it's the noun "pledge" (this proverb is actually mentioned in the entry for ἐγγύη) -- I suspect the verb would normally be in the middle voice for the sense needed here.
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Re: Chilon of Sparta (Athenaze p.61)

Postby NateD26 » Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:58 pm

Thanks. Smyth translated πάρα for πάρεστι as it is permitted and ἔνι for ἔνεστι as it is possible.

If it is the noun, how the whole phrase is translated?

A pledge and a rashness at hand.

?
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Re: Chilon of Sparta (Athenaze p.61)

Postby modus.irrealis » Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:24 pm

ἅτη can also mean "ruin" (what the recklessness leads to), so you could say "a pledge and ruin is at hand".
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Re: Chilon of Sparta (Athenaze p.61)

Postby NateD26 » Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:02 pm

Thanks. it makes sense now. :)

Liddell-Scott quoted this line as ἐγγύη, πάρα δ' ἄτη (from Plato) and mentioned that it is rarely ἐγγύα.
They mean only in Attic or at all?

I've found this line quoted in many other places as ἐγγύα, πάρα δ' ἄτᾱ (Doric for ἄτη).
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Re: Chilon of Sparta (Athenaze p.61)

Postby modus.irrealis » Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:41 pm

I'd assume Liddell-Scott means in Attic, since in Doric you always have α. I'm not sure why Athenaze mixes the two versions -- it seems to me that you either keep the α throughout or the η. But like you said initially, it could be an imperative and perhaps they meant it that way.
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Re: Chilon of Sparta (Athenaze p.61)

Postby annis » Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:29 pm

From Paroemiographi Graeci, p.394 —

Ἐγγύῃ πάρα δ’ ἄτα: πάρεστι φησὶ τῇ ἐγγύῃ ἄτη καὶ βλάβη.

From the footnotes: ἐγγύα, πάρα δ’ ἄτα: ἐπὶ τῶν ῥαδίως ἐγγυωμένων καὶ κακῶς ἀπαλλαττόντων.

In the notes on these proverbs ἐπί + gen. seems to be the usual way to describe the situation to which the proverb applies.
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Re: Chilon of Sparta (Athenaze p.61)

Postby NateD26 » Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:16 pm

annis wrote:From Paroemiographi Graeci, p.394 —

Ἐγγύῃ πάρα δ’ ἄτα: πάρεστι φησὶ τῇ ἐγγύῃ ἄτη καὶ βλάβη.


in this quote it is in dative? the translation would be:
"in a pledge, mischief/ruin is present (and harm)."
right?

annis wrote:From the footnotes: ἐγγύα, πάρα δ’ ἄτα: ἐπὶ τῶν ῥαδίως ἐγγυωμένων καὶ κακῶς ἀπαλλαττόντων.

In the notes on these proverbs ἐπί + gen. seems to be the usual way to describe the situation to which the proverb applies.

can you explain please the meaning of ἐπί here? and does the rest mean:
"those who receive pledges readily and those who get off wickedly"
?

Thanks.
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Re: Chilon of Sparta (Athenaze p.61)

Postby annis » Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:04 pm

NateD26 wrote:in this quote it is in dative? the translation would be:
"in a pledge, mischief/ruin is present (and harm)."


It is dative in the quotation I found. It's not uncommon for prepositions, when joined to verbs, to still exert their normal influence. So, πάρεστι in the meaning "be near, be present" can take a dative phrase for things like "be present at/by/near."

can you explain please the meaning of ἐπί here?


Err... I just did? :) I mean, I'm not sure I understand where the question is coming from. If you dig into the big LSJ, you'll see that one meaning of ἐπί + gen., "with Verbs of perceiving, observing, judging, etc., in the case of." That seems to be the sense used in the notes for these proverb collections.

and does the rest mean: "those who receive pledges readily and those who get off wickedly"


Ooh, I don't think ἐγγυωμένων is passive, but middle, and ἀπαλλάττω has the sense of "pay off, discharge" a debt, etc. So the commentators seem to interpret this as a warning about the the obligations (which might be troublesome) of pledges taken on too easily.
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Re: Chilon of Sparta (Athenaze p.61)

Postby NateD26 » Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:54 pm

Thank you, annis, for your detailed answer.
I did not have access to LSJ and in Middle-Liddell there's only a quote but no definition
for this certain meaning.
6. with Verbs of observing, in, ὁρᾶν τι ἐπί τινος Xen.


Thanks again. :)
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Re: Chilon of Sparta (Athenaze p.61)

Postby annis » Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:48 pm

NateD26 wrote:I did not have access to LSJ


On the contrary! If you have access to Textkit then you have several ways to get access to the LSJ. There are two separate interfaces at Perseus; you could download Diogenes to your computer, or use the version I have at Aoidoi.org. There's even a new iPhone app, Lexiphanes, which is very cheap and has a very good interface.

I cannot too strongly recommend that students of Greek get used to consulting the LSJ rather than lighter-weight dictionaries as soon as possible. It and Smyth's grammar are the most important tools you'll have in gaining mastery of classical Greek, and are still central to Homeric and Koine studies, too.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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