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2nd Aorist Optative?

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2nd Aorist Optative?

Postby Orr^^ » Tue Dec 02, 2003 9:39 pm

Friends,
I have been studying Greek (koine) for 2 years and doing tutored study for about 2 more years. I was reading in my LXX and I came across a word that I could not identify fully.

Daniel 6:16b
Translation: "Thy God[,] whom thou servest continually, he *will deliver* thee." (KJV)

word: ekeleitai
accent: penult/long
direct discourse

My guess: airew, third person singular, 2 aorist, optative

Issue: Why is the penult accented?

Sincerely,
Mike Ferrando
Washington, DC
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Re: 2nd Aorist Optative?

Postby annis » Wed Dec 03, 2003 12:04 am

Orr^^ wrote:word: ekeleitai
accent: penult/long
direct discourse

My guess: airew, third person singular, 2 aorist, optative


The root is correct, but not the tense. Later Greek uses the same stem ([face=spionic]e(l[/face]-) to form the future. Since it is a liquid stem, that means you get a contracted future: [face=spionic]e(le-[/face], in the middle [face=spionic]e(le/etai[/face] which contracts to [face=spionic]e(lei=tai[/face], the accenting you see above.

(I removed the duplicate of this question from the Agora part of the forum, where people are encouraged to ask their questions in Greek or Latin :) ).
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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re: 2nd Aorist Optative?

Postby Orr^^ » Wed Dec 03, 2003 3:05 pm

Annis,
Thank you for your reply.

Concerning the verb. I did look this verb up and saw that the future was elw. But in every case there was no indication of the liquid stem. Each time the accenting on the future form was on the penult. Since this was the case I did not think it was a liquid future. (I expected either long ultima or uncontracted epsilon penult with acute.)

What would be the form and accenting if airew was 2nd Aorist Optative? I have tried to find a paradigm for such an animal and have not found one.

I posted this question to the WRONG forum initially. Thanks for removing it.

Sincerely,
Mike Ferrando
Washington, DC

o kurios eggus:
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Postby Paul » Wed Dec 03, 2003 4:16 pm

Hi Mike,

Welcome to Textkit.

word: ekeleitai


Ah, now I see: you meant [face=SPIonic]e)celei=tai[/face]. In SPIONICese: e)celei=tai.


What would be the form and accenting if airew was 2nd Aorist Optative?


3rd singular aorist2 optative active of [face=SPIonic]a(ire/w[/face] is, I think, [face=SPIonic]e(/loi[/face].


Cordially,

Paul
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re: 2nd Aorist Optative?

Postby Orr^^ » Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:11 pm

Paul,
Thanks for your kind greeting.

I see a note on the instance in my Analytical Lexicon.

§24.7
"The second aorist middle is formed from that of the active by changing ov into omhn;... Optative tupoimhn, oio, oito."
(George V. Wigrams. _Analytical Greek Lexicon of the New Testament_. Samuel Bagster & Sons, 1852.)

I lost out on a number of areas.
1. Optative finite verbs always takes the secondary personal ending.
2. Aorist finite verbs always takes the secondary personal ending.
3. Optative W finite verbs have recessive accents.
4. Optative W finite verbs have no variable vowel before the personal ending.

So to venture a guess I would say that:
third singular 2nd aorist Optative would be: elouto (accent: penult/long)

Did I get it right yet?

BTW how do you write xsi in ASCII? (Your ASCII/Greek was not clear to me.)

Guess I gotta get more sleep.

Sincerely,
Mike Ferrando
Washington, DC

iscuw panta en endunamounti me Xristw
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Postby Paul » Thu Dec 04, 2003 9:27 pm

Hi Mike,

For form of 3rd singular aorist2 optative active, please see my prior post in this thread. The form you suggest seems to have middle endings.

BTW how do you write xsi in ASCII? (Your ASCII/Greek was not clear to me.)


This forum uses a nearly standard version of betacode in conjunction with the SPIONIC font to render greek glyphs. In betacode, the greek letter 'xi' is represented by english 'c'.

See http://ptolemy.tlg.uci.edu/~tlg/BetaCode.html for more info on betacode.

Sorry for the brief reply, but I am running out the door. I will revisit this when I get back.

Take care,

Paul
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Optative Morphology

Postby Paul » Fri Dec 05, 2003 10:54 pm

4. Optative W finite verbs have no variable vowel before the personal ending.


Hi Mike,

I not quite sure what you mean by 'variable vowel'. Can you clarify this?

Meanwhile, permit me a few borrowed observations about optative morphology. This mood can be athematic or thematic. When athematic the optative mood suffix exhibits ablaut - vowel alternation - alternating between [face=SPIonic]ih[/face] in the singular active and [face=SPIonic]i[/face] in the dual/plural active and middle. So, looking at the verb [face=SPIonic]ei)mi/[/face] we see:

1st singular present optative active = [face=SPIonic]e-ih-n[/face], but
1st plural present optative active = [face=SPIonic]e-i-men[/face].

When thematic the optative mood suffix is always [face=SPIonic]i[/face]; whence, in combination with thematic omicron, the familiar [face=SPIonic]-oi-[/face] suffix that we see in many verbs, e.g., [face=SPIonic]lu/w[/face].

But note that by a kind of intrusive analogy you do see thematic forms mixing with athematic, e.g., [face=SPIonic]e)/oij[/face] and [face=SPIonic]e)/oi[/face], 2nd and 3rd person singular active of [face=SPIonic]ei)mi/[/face].

Cordially,

Paul
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re: 2nd Aorist Optative?

Postby Orr^^ » Tue Dec 09, 2003 2:56 pm

Paul,
Thanks again for your patience and response.

I was trying to figure out what the 2nd Aorist Optative (third person middle) would be. From your post, I got it right (airew = elouto). However, I can see now that when the aorist middle is desired from airew, the 2nd aorist stem is not used. Instead airhsamhn is the form that is used.

The term "variable vowel" is used by Machen. The term represents the vowels that are placed between the verb stem and the personal ending.
lu + o + men

Your comments on the optative I am still chewing on. I have to read the ASCII Greek pages before I can really read the Greek in your response.

Thanks again,
Mike Ferrando
Washington, DC

eirhnh tou Xristou meta sou.
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