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Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

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Re: Asking help for answers

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:29 pm

Mindy,

How would you translate

καὶ ἦλθεν τοῦ πολεμῆσαι ἐν τῷ πεδίῳ Μαγεδων

What case form is Μαγεδων. Why?


1Chr. 8:8 καὶ Σααρημ ἐγέννησεν ἐν τῷ πεδίῳ Μωαβ μετὰ τὸ ἀποστεῖλαι αὐτὸν Ωσιμ καὶ τὴν Βααδα γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ.

2Chr. 35:22 καὶ οὐκ ἀπέστρεψεν Ιωσιας τὸ πρόσωπον αὐτοῦ ἀπ᾿ αὐτοῦ, ἀλλ᾿ ἢ πολεμεῖν αὐτὸν ἐκραταιώθη καὶ οὐκ ἤκουσεν τῶν λόγων Νεχαω διὰ στόματος θεοῦ καὶ ἦλθεν τοῦ πολεμῆσαι ἐν τῷ πεδίῳ Μαγεδων.
Last edited by C. S. Bartholomew on Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:00 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby Mindy » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:45 pm

Thank you, Joel.

p. 11 (b) Translate:

1. έν τώ πεδίω δήλα ήν τά δένδρα.
The trees were clear in the plain.

2. στάδιον ήν παρά τώ ποταμώ.
A stadium was by the side of the river.

3. καί είς τό στάδιον άγουσι δώρα καλά.
And they bring honorable gifts into the stadium.

4. οί δ αδελφοί έθέλουσιν ίππους πέμπειν παρά τούς φίλους.
But or Then the brothers wish to send the horses to the friends.

5. παρά τού στρατηγού ήν τά δώρα.
The gifts were from the general.

6. έκ τού πεδίου άγομεν τούς πολεμίους.
We lead the enemies out of the plain.

7. ό δ άνθρωπος άξιος ήν δώρων καλών.
But or Then the man was worthy of fine gifts.
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby jeidsath » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:04 pm

Very good. But δὲ should be translated as "but" or "and." "Then," in a temporal sense, is signaled with other words. It's something that will make more sense with reading.
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby Mindy » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:06 pm

Thank you, C. Stirling Bartholomew.

And he went to the war in the plain of Magedon.

Μαγεδων is Genitive, because it describes the plain.

The Hebrew word is valley instead of plain.
Last edited by Mindy on Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:19 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby Mindy » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:11 pm

Thank you, Joel.

p. 11 (b) Translate:

1. έν τώ πεδίω δήλα ήν τά δένδρα.
The trees were clear in the plain.

2. στάδιον ήν παρά τώ ποταμώ.
A stadium was by the side of the river.

3. καί είς τό στάδιον άγουσι δώρα καλά.
And they bring honorable gifts into the stadium.

4. οί δ αδελφοί έθέλουσιν ίππους πέμπειν παρά τούς φίλους.
But or And the brothers wish to send the horses to the friends.

5. παρά τού στρατηγού ήν τά δώρα.
The gifts were from the general.

6. έκ τού πεδίου άγομεν τούς πολεμίους.
We lead the enemies out of the plain.

7. ό δ άνθρωπος άξιος ήν δώρων καλών.
But or And the man was worthy of fine gifts.
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:43 pm

καὶ ἦλθεν τοῦ πολεμῆσαι ἐν τῷ πεδίῳ Μαγεδων


Mindy wrote:
And he went to the war in the plain of Magedon.

Μαγεδων is Genitive, because it describes the plain.

The Hebrew word is valley instead of plain.


Right!

ἐν τῷ πεδίῳ Μαγεδδαους translates בבקעת מגדו

where בקעת is in the construct state.

2Chr. 35:22
ב ‎Particle preposition
בקעת ‎Noun feminine singular construct
מגדו Noun properName
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby Mindy » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:15 am

Thank you, C. S. Bartholomew.

I don't have a Hebrew textbook, and know little about the grammar. I have learned a little grammar about verb, gender, number and a few heavy type endings by WeChat. Generally speaking, I have been learning Hebrew only by Hebrew - English/Chinese parallels and OT mp3 online.
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby Mindy » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:36 pm

p. 12 (c) Complete:
1. τἁ δἑ δένδρα ἦν (linking verb) μίκρά.

2. ἳππους δ ἅγετε είς τόν ποταμόν (singular).

3. ἐν τώ σταδίω (singular) ἦσαν οί άδελφοί.

(d) Write in Greek:
1. The stones were beautiful.
οί λίθους ήσαν καλούς.

2. The brave messenger was hostile to the general.
ό άγγελος αγαθόν πολέμιος ήν τώ στρατηγώ (singular).

3. The friends have fine horses.
οί φίλους έχουσιν αγαθούς ίππους.

4. He wishes to lead the men out of danger.
τούς ανθρώπους έθέλει άγειν έκ τόυ κινδύνου.

5. The brothers were hostile to the general.
οί αδελφοί πολέμιοι ήσαν τώ στρατηγώ.
Last edited by Mindy on Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:14 pm

4. He wishes to lead the men out of danger.
τούς ανθρώπους έθέλει άγειν έκ τόυ κινδύνου.


The article τόυ κινδύνου is a tough call. I looked at a bunch of examples in TLG. After doing my own research I looked at the answer key and the article was in parentheses indicating contextual issues which could not be determined. Within the Cognitive Framework, the article indicates that substantive is mentally accessible not necessarily having been introduced within the textual co-text. So the article could be deleted. I found several examples where it was. It really has to do with how the narrator wants to frame the discourse. Article usage is beyond the scope of Crosby & Schaeffer.
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby jeidsath » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:33 pm

Mindy wrote:p. 12 (c) Complete:
1. τά δέ δένδρα ήν (linking verb) μίκρά.

2. ίππους δ άγετε είς τόν ποταμόν (singular).

3. έν τώ σταδίω (singular) ήσαν οί αδελφοί.


Above are good.

Mindy wrote:(d) Write in Greek:
1. The stones were beautiful.
οί λίθους ήσαν καλούς.


ῆσαν takes a nominative on both sides of the verb. λίθους is accusative.

Mindy wrote:2. The brave messenger was hostile to the general.
ό άγγελος αγαθόν πολέμιος ήν τώ στρατηγώ (singular).


ἀγαθόν should be nominative masculine to agree with the messenger. Also take note of this difference:

ὁ ἀγαθός ἄγγελος -- the brave messenger
ὁ ἄγγελος ὁ ἀγαθός -- the brave messenger
ὁ ἄγγελος ἀγαθός -- the messenger that is brave

Mindy wrote:3. The friends have fine horses.
οί φίλους έχουσιν αγαθούς ίππους.


φίλους is acc. pl. They are the subject of the sentence and should be nominative.

Mindy wrote:4. He wishes to lead the men out of danger.
τούς ανθρώπους έθέλει άγειν έκ τόυ κινδύνου.


Good.

Mindy wrote:5. The brothers were hostile to the general.
οί αδελφοί πολέμιοι ήσαν τώ στρατηγώ.


Good.
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby Mindy » Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:27 am

Thank you, C. S. Bartholomew and Joel. I will work on those sentences.
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby Mindy » Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:47 pm

p. 12 (d) Write in Greek:
1. The stones were beautiful.
οί λίθοι ήσαν καλοί.

2. The brave messenger was hostile to the general.
ό αγαθός άγγελος πολέμιος ήν τώ στρατηγώ (singular).
or
ό άγγελος ό αγαθός πολέμιος ήν τώ στρατηγώ (singular).

3. The friends have fine horses.
οί φίλοι έχουσιν αγαθούς ίππους.

C. Stirling Bartholomew,
p. 8 (b)
6. τούς φίλους έθέλομεν άγειν έκ τού κινδύνου.
There's τού in the textbook.
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby Mindy » Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:36 am

jeidsath wrote:
Mindy wrote:2. The brave messenger was hostile to the general.
ό άγγελος αγαθόν πολέμιος ήν τώ στρατηγώ (singular).


ἀγαθόν should be nominative masculine to agree with the messenger. Also take note of this difference:

ὁ ἀγαθός ἄγγελος -- the brave messenger
ὁ ἄγγελος ὁ ἀγαθός -- the brave messenger
ὁ ἄγγελος ἀγαθός -- the messenger that is brave



Above reminds me of John 10: 11 and John 15: 1.

10: 11Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ποιμὴν ὁ καλός: ὁ ποιμὴν ὁ καλὸς τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ τίθησιν ὑπὲρ τῶν προβάτων:

15: 1Ἐγώ εἰμι ἡ ἄμπελος ἡ ἀληθινή, ...
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Re: Asking help for answers

Postby Mindy » Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:50 pm

jeidsath wrote:
If you just want to use something online, there is:

https://www.lexilogos.com/keyboard/greek_ancient.htm


Thank you, Joel.

I have been learning to use this keyboard online. There's also a Hebrew keyboard.
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby Mindy » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:57 am

p. 13
(c) What are the possible meanings suggested by the endings

ον
δἐνδρον δῶρον πεδίον στάδιον (from p. 330 §549)
Noun - Nominative/Accusative Masculine/Neuter Singular


Noun - Dative Masculine Singular

ου
Noun - Genitive Masculine Singular

ους
Noun - Genitive Masculine Plural

οι
Noun/Adjective - Nominative Masculine Plural

οις
Noun/Adjective - Dative Neuter Plural

α
Noun/Adjective - Nominative Neuter Plural?
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby jeidsath » Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:54 pm

ον — good, but remember that while it can be neuter nominative or accusative it would only be masculine accusative

ῳ — good, but you forgot one

ου — good, but you forgot one

οις — good, but you forgot one

α — Yes, it can be a nominative neuter plural, but also an accusative neuter plural. (For feminines, see the next section)

Thank you for changing the topic title.
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby Mindy » Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:35 pm

jeidsath wrote:ον — good, but remember that while it can be neuter nominative or accusative it would only be masculine accusative

ῳ — good, but you forgot one

ου — good, but you forgot one

οις — good, but you forgot one

α — Yes, it can be a nominative neuter plural, but also an accusative neuter plural. (For feminines, see the next section)


Thanks, Joel.

p. 13
(c) What are the possible meanings suggested by the endings

ον
δἐνδρον δῶρον πεδίον στάδιον (from p. 330 §549)
Noun - Nominative/Accusative Neuter Singular
καί
Noun - Accusative Masculine Singular


Noun - Dative Masculine/Neuter Singular

ου
Noun/Adjective - Genitive Masculine Singular

ους
Noun - Genitive Masculine Plural

οι
Noun/Adjective - Nominative Masculine Plural

οις
Noun/Adjective - Dative Masculine/Neuter Plural

α
Noun/Adjective - Nominative/Accusative Neuter Plural?
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby Mindy » Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:39 pm

"jeidsath wrote:
ον — good, but remember that while it can be neuter nominative or accusative it would only be masculine accusative

ῳ — good, but you forgot one

ου — good, but you forgot one

οις — good, but you forgot one

α — Yes, it can be a nominative neuter plural, but also an accusative neuter plural. (For feminines, see the next section)"


Thanks, Joel.

p. 13
(c) What are the possible meanings suggested by the endings

ον
δἐνδρον δῶρον πεδίον στάδιον (from p. 330 §549)
Noun/Adjective - Nominative/Accusative Neuter Singular
καί
Noun/Adjective - Accusative Masculine Singular


Noun/Adjective - Dative Masculine/Neuter Singular

ου
Noun/Adjective - Genitive Masculine/Neuter Singular

ους
Noun/Adjective - Genitive Masculine Plural

οι
Noun/Adjective - Nominative Masculine Plural

οις
Noun/Adjective - Dative Masculine/Neuter Plural

α
Noun/Adjective - Nominative/Accusative Neuter Plural?
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby jeidsath » Sun Mar 25, 2018 3:55 pm

All good except for ους, which I missed the first time.
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby Mindy » Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:25 pm

jeidsath wrote:All good except for ους, which I missed the first time.


Thank you for checking, Joel.

ους
Noun/Adjective - Accusative Masculine Plural

Greek language is harder than its philosophy.
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby Mindy » Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:55 pm

p. 13 (d) Give the Greek for:
he is writing
γράφει
p. 7

you (sing.) lead
ἄγεις
p. 7

we stop
παύομεν
p. 7

they have
ἔχουσι (ν)
pp. 2, 7

I am loosing
λὐω
p. 7

you (pl.) wish
έθέλετε
p. 7

he sends
πέμπει
pp. 2, 7

p. 14
(a) Complete:
1.
ό τού στρατηγού (sing.) κἰνδῦνος ἦν μικρός.

2.
δώρα (pl.) πέμπομεν παρά τούς φίλους (pl.).
p. 11

3. οί δ άδελφοί ἦσαν δίκαιοι.
p. 4

4. έθέλετε γράφειν.
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby jeidsath » Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:59 pm

All of these look good to me.
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby Mindy » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:11 pm

Thank you, Joel.

Two more:

5.
τὰ δένδρα ἦν (linking verb) έν τώ πεδίω (sing.).

6.
ό ἅγγελος πολέμιος ἦν τώ άνθρωπω (sing.).

What were written on the tablet?
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby jeidsath » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:21 pm

Good. And you were right to notice that τα δενδρα takes a singular verb.
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby Mindy » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:27 pm

jeidsath wrote:Good. And you were right to notice that τα δενδρα takes a singular verb.


Because you corrected me once.

What were written on the tablet?
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby jeidsath » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:34 pm

Mindy wrote:What were written on the tablet?


Image

Why don't you try writing out the Greek that you can recognize in the tablet first, and then I (or someone else) will correct.
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby Mindy » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:47 pm

Ok. I'll try next time.
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby Mindy » Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:39 pm

I have only been recognising two words from the second verse:
ΦΙΛΟΙςΠΙΣΤΕΥΕΤΑΙ
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby jeidsath » Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:56 pm

Here are the first two lines:

ϹΟΦΟΥΠΑΡΑΝΔΡΟϹΠΡΟϹΔΕΧΟΥϹΥΜΒΟΥΛΙΑΝ
ΜΗΠΑϹΙΝΕΙΚΗΤΟΙϹΦΙΛΟΙϹΠΙϹΤΕΥΕΤΑΙ

We'd write that today as:

σοφοῦ παρ’ ἀνδρὸς προσδέχου συμβουλίαν
μὴ πᾶσιν εἰκῇ τοῖς φίλοις πιστεύετε

"Accept advice from a wise man."
"Don't trust all of your friends heedlessly."

You were correct to transcribe ΦΙΛΟΙΣΠΙϹΤΕΥΕΤΑΙ, however the schoolmaster has made a mistake here. It should be ΠΙϹΤΕΥΕΤΕ. The rest of the lines are an attempt of the student to copy them. With some errors.
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby Mindy » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:05 pm

Thank you, Joel.

Here was my guess:
ΟΦΟΥΠΑΡ ΑΝΔΡΟςΠΡΟςΔΕΧΟΥςΥλλΒ ΥΑΙΑΝ
σοφού πάρ Άνδρος προς δεχους

ΑΛΗΠΑΣΙΝΕΙΚΗΤΟΙςΦΙΛΟΙςΠΙΣΤΕΥΕΤΑΙ
αληπασιν εικητοις φίλοιςπιστεύεται
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby Mindy » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:28 pm

At ancient time the schoolmaster wrote Σ as C.

How do you know it was a boy, not a girl who copied the schoolmaster?
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby jeidsath » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:16 pm

Yes. Ϲ is the "lunate sigma."

It would have been early centuries AD in Egypt, and that makes a girl less likely, though not impossible. Poor handwriting for a girl, I'd think.
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby Mindy » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:56 pm

έχω.

έθέλω γράφειν "I know/see".
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby Mindy » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:29 pm

jeidsath wrote:Here are the first two lines:

ϹΟΦΟΥΠΑΡΑΝΔΡΟϹΠΡΟϹΔΕΧΟΥϹΥΜΒΟΥΛΙΑΝ
ΜΗΠΑϹΙΝΕΙΚΗΤΟΙϹΦΙΛΟΙϹΠΙϹΤΕΥΕΤΑΙ

We'd write that today as:

σοφοῦ παρ’ ἀνδρὸς προσδέχου συμβουλίαν
μὴ πᾶσιν εἰκῇ τοῖς φίλοις πιστεύετε

"Accept advice from a wise man."
"Don't trust all of your friends heedlessly."


Why did the schoolmaster write such a small ο in CΥΜΒοΥΛΙΑΝ?
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby Mindy » Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:45 pm

p. 14 (b) Write in Greek:
1. But the messenger is leading the horses out of the Hellespont.
τούς ίππους ό δέ άγγελος άγει έκ τού Ήλλεσπόντου.

2. The trees in the plain were small.
έν τώ πεδίω μικρά ᾖν τά δένδρα.

3. And you (pl.) wish to have beautiful gifts.
καί έθέλετε έχειν δώρα καλά.

4. We are sending the men into the stadium.
είς τόν στάδιον πέμπομεν τούς ανθρώπους.

5. The fine gifts were from (the side of) friends of the general.
παρά τών τόυ στρατηγού φίλων ᾖν τά καλά δώρα.
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby jeidsath » Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:53 pm

All good, except the first. δε comes second in a sentence.

I don’t know the answer to the question about ΒοΥ. It looks like some ligatures that I’ve seen in medieval manuscripts, but I don’t know if there is any relation. It may just be a correction.
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby C. S. Bartholomew » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:26 pm

jeidsath wrote:All good, except the first. δε comes second in a sentence.


LSJ

POSITION of δέ. It usu. stands second: hence freq. between Art. and Subst. or Prep. and case; but also after Subst., or words forming a connected notion, hence it may stand third, γυναῖκα πιστὴν δ' ἐν δόμοις εὕροι A.Ag.606, cf. Th.411, Eu.531, S.Ph.959, etc.; fourth, Id.OT485, E.Hel.688, A.Pr.323,383, etc.; fifth, ib. 401codd.; even sixth, Epigen.7(codd. Poll.); so in Prose after a neg., οὐχ ὑπ' ἐραστοῦ δέ, to avoid confusion between οὐ δέ and οὐδέ, Pl.Phdr.227c.
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby Mindy » Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:14 pm

C. S. Bartholomew wrote:
jeidsath wrote:All good, except the first. δε comes second in a sentence.


LSJ

POSITION of δέ. It usu. stands second: hence freq. between Art. and Subst. or Prep. and case; but also after Subst., or words forming a connected notion, hence it may stand third, γυναῖκα πιστὴν δ' ἐν δόμοις εὕροι A.Ag.606, cf. Th.411, Eu.531, S.Ph.959, etc.; fourth, Id.OT485, E.Hel.688, A.Pr.323,383, etc.; fifth, ib. 401codd.; even sixth, Epigen.7(codd. Poll.); so in Prose after a neg., οὐχ ὑπ' ἐραστοῦ δέ, to avoid confusion between οὐ δέ and οὐδέ, Pl.Phdr.227c.


Thank you, Joel. The sentence begins with τούς ίππους. I didn't know that δέ usually goes the second.

Thank you, C. Stirling Bartholomew. I don't understand most of the words yet.
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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby jeidsath » Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:21 pm

So you can do:

τοὺς δ' ἵππους ὁ ἄγγελος...
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: Exercises from Crosby and Schaeffer

Postby Mindy » Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:45 pm

jeidsath wrote:So you can do:

τοὺς δ' ἵππους ὁ ἄγγελος...


τούς δ' ἵππους ό ἄγγελος άγει έκ τού Ήλλεσπόντου.
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