Textkit Logo

The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Here you can discuss all things Ancient Greek. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get help with a difficult passage of Greek, and more.

The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby jeidsath » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:48 pm

The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek by Juan Coderch
Translation of Antoine de Saint-Exupéry's original text, with vocabulary help.
[EDIT: PDF download (hosted by the author)]

I have just received the book and have only read the first chapter and introduction so far. Coderch's translation is very pleasant Greek. I haven't read the story in many years, but the author's style and voice comes through wonderfully. The introduction discusses Coderch's translation decisions. The most interesting of these is that he has provided language help in the margins. For example:

διήγημα, -ατος = μῦθος


These are very useful, but he might want to consider an index of these marginal helps, since they don't repeat. I also thought that his symbols "=", ":", "<", "<->", should have been replaced by Greek text, following scholia examples. The symbols aren't quite self-explanatory unless you read the introduction, and that could have explained scholia language just as easily.

The vocabulary help combined with this being a translation of a very well-known children's story makes this a good example of comprehensible input, I would think. If help is needed, you can always refer to the English (or French or whatever language you'd like) version of the story.

I noticed two typos, one in the marginal material "ἀνερεύετος" and one in the first post-chapter question "ἀνένγω." I saw these though I wasn't looking very hard for errors. In my opinion though, these typos aren't frequent enough to detract from the text.

I've made an audio recording of the first chapter. I'm hoping that this will make good bedtime reading for my daughter in a year or so:
https://youtu.be/s2ijxjWKCSg
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.
User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
 
Posts: 1944
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby jeidsath » Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:20 pm

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.
User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
 
Posts: 1944
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby Tugodum » Sat Jul 01, 2017 4:58 pm

Awesome! Would you please share a fuller bibliographic info? Thanks.
Tugodum
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:15 am

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby jeidsath » Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:53 pm

The page for the book on Amazon.

(There is a preview there that contains the Introduction.)

Paperback: 102 pages
Publisher: Juan Coderch; 1 edition (May 3, 2017)
ISBN-10: 0957138741
ISBN-13: 978-0957138742

Juan Coderch writes the news in Classical Greek at http://www.akwn.net. Here is his faculty page at University of St. Andrews, where he is listed as Senior Language Tutor in Greek and Latin. His other published translation project is Don Camillo and Sherlock Holmes in Classical Greek, which I read some time ago and enjoyed.

I emailed him with the above typos, and he emailed to let me know that he has already corrected the source PDF.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.
User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
 
Posts: 1944
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby Tugodum » Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:57 pm

Thanks, will go for it!
Tugodum
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:15 am

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby Markos » Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:51 pm

χαίρετε πάντες,

Thanks, Joel, for finding this. Where did you learn about it?

Coderich's edition uses three staples of the Direct Method:

1. Monolingual helps.
2. Pictures, so as to stay in the target language.
3. L2 discussion questions for L2 comp practice.

These happen to be the same three things rmedinap has called for:
rmedinap wrote:...Why don't we paraphrase into more simple Attic the parts that he doesn't understand of a given text? Out of that paraphrase we could work out some small dialogues with the vocabulary and mix it with the original. Ideally someone could draw pictures of the realia. (On that point one of the greatest desiderata of Greek scholarship is the equivalent to the In usum delphini series for Latin authors).

εἰς Μάρκου χρῆσιν? :lol:
jeidsath wrote:Someday I'd like to figure out how to properly do a "Let's Read" thread.

I've been struggling with this question myself as to how it would apply to a Direct Method thread. Jonah, I think,

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=66411

turned out to be a bad choice for such a thread. τὸ Βασιλείδιον, which I have just ordered, might be better.

ἔρρωσθε.
οὐ μανθάνω γράφειν, ἀλλὰ γράφω τοῦ μαθεῖν.
Markos
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 2701
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:07 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby jeidsath » Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:46 pm

That sort of thread sounds good. I got distracted by a couple of software projects from the Jonah thread, which turned out to be too much work in addition.

I discovered The Little Prince from an Amazon recommendation. However, here is the book site with a free PDF download (you should still buy the book from Amazon, as it's available at a more than reasonable price):

PDF download (hosted by the author) of The Little Prince in Ancient Greek.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.
User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
 
Posts: 1944
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby bedwere » Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:54 am

It's likely that the typos in the printed version have already been fixed as well.
User avatar
bedwere
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2731
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: Didacopoli in California

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby Tugodum » Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:14 am

On p. 12 in the PDF, Coderch has: "ηρομην ποτερον το εμον διαγραμμα αυτους φοβοιη η ου." I am wondering how this might square with de Strycker's note on Plato's Apology 18 a4-5 which I have coincidentally come across: "ει ... η μη: in disjunctive indirect questions, the negative of the second member may always be μη, and this is regularly the case when the second member contains only the negative (Lat. necne)."
Tugodum
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:15 am

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby Hylander » Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:16 am

Smyth thinks that either is ok, citing Plato's Republic for an instance of ου. See sec. 2676e in particular (but it's worthwhile reading the whole section, and especially subsection f):

2676. The negative of the direct form is usually preserved in indirect questions.
““εἴσομαι . . . πότερον ὁ ἔχων αὐτὸ οὐκ εὐδαίμων ἐστὶν ἢ εὐδαίμων” I shall know whether its possessor is happy or not” P. R. 354c, ““οὐκ οἶδ᾽ ὅπως φῶ τοῦτο καὶ μὴ φῶ” I know not how I am to say this and not to say it” E. I. A. 643 ( = πῶς μὴ φῶ;).

a. Indirect single questions introduced by interrogative pronouns, adjectives, and adverbs, usually have οὐ.

b. μή appears after verbs of seeing, considering and the like (σκοπῶ, ὁρῶ, ἐννοοῦμαι, ἐνθυ_μοῦμαι) when there is an idea of purpose or desire to prevent something. Thus, ὁρᾶτε . . . ὅτῳ τρόπῳ κάλλιστα ἀμυνεῖσθε αὐτοὺς καὶ μήτε καταφρονήσαντες ἄφαρκτοι ληφθήσεσθε κτλ. consider how you may best defend yourselves and may neither be caught off your guard through contempt, etc. T. 6.33. So also with the potential optative with ἄν; as τί οὖν οὐ σκοποῦμεν πῶς ἂν αὐτῶν μὴ διαμαρτάνοιμεν; why then do we not consider how we may avoid mistaking them? X. M. 3.1.10. Indirect questions with μή thus belong under μή with verbs of fear and apprehension, where μή is the negative of the will. Cp. 2674.

c. Indirect questions introduced by εἰ have οὐ or μή. Thus, ““ἤρετο τὸν δῆμον εἰ οὐκ αἰσχύ_νοιντο” he asked the people whether they were not ashamed” Aes. 1.84, ἤρετό με . . . εἰ μὴ μέμνημαι he asked me whether I did not remember 2. 36.

d. In relative clauses joined by καί and standing in an indirect question (what . . . and what not), μή must be used when the verb is to be supplied with the second clause; but when the verb is repeated, either μή, or οὐ if the antecedent is definite, may be used. Thus, ““διαγιγνώσκουσιν ἅ τε δύνανται καὶ ἃ μή” they distinguish between what they can do and what they cannot” X. M. 4.2.26, οἶσθα . . . ὁπόσοι τε φρουροὶ ἱκανοί εἰσι καὶ ὁπόσοι μή εἰσιν you know how many garrisons are advantageously situated and how many are not 3. 6. 10. The antecedent is definite in ““ἀπέδειξεν οὓς χρὴ δημηγορεῖν καὶ οὓς οὐ δεῖ λέγειν ἐν τῷ δήμῳ” he showed who must speak in the assembly and who must not speak before the people” Aes. 1.27.

e. As the second member of an alternative question introduced by εἰ, or not is either ἢ οὐ or ἢ μή. Thus, ““σκοπῶμεν εἰ ἡμῖν πρέπει ἢ οὔ” let us consider whether it is proper for us or not” P. R. 451d, νῦν ἔμαθον δ̀ λέγεις: εἰ δὲ ἀληθὲς ἢ μή, πειρά_σομαι μαθεῖν now I have made out what you mean; and I will try to make out whether it is true or not 339 a.

f. A shift from μή to οὐ in sequent alternative indirect questions appears to be due to the desire to attain variety. Thus, ““οὐ δεῖ ὑ_μᾶς ἐκ τῶν τοῦ κατηγόρου λόγων τοὺς νόμους καταμανθάνειν, εἰ καλῶς ὑ_μῖν κεῖνται ἢ μή, ἀλλ᾽ ἐκ τῶν νόμων τοὺς τοῦ κατηγόρου λόγους, εἰ ὀρθῶς καὶ νομίμως ὑ_μᾶς διδάσκουσι τὸ πρᾶγμα ἢ οὔ” you must not start from the pleas of the accuser to learn whether your laws have been established well or not, but you must start from the laws to learn whether his pleas set forth the case fairly and legally or not” Ant. 5.14. Cp. Ant. 6.2, Is. 8.9, D. 20.83. Some scholars hold that οὐ here lays stress on a negative fact or on something conceived as a negative fact, and that μή puts the question abstractly as a mere conception.


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Smyth+grammar+2676&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0007

De Strycker doesn't say μη is obligatory, only that it's permissible and it's "regularly the case when the second member contains only the negative."
Hylander
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1087
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:16 pm

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby Tugodum » Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:45 am

Thanks! I have to admit, though, that I am now puzzled as to what de Strycker could possibly mean (BTW, he refers to K.-G. ii 191-192, a reference tool that I am not familiar with) as, per my imperfect English, the line between "obligatory" and "is regularly the case" is too thin for me to grasp, given that nulla regula sine exceptione, i.e., nothing is "obligatory" sensu stricto.
Tugodum
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:15 am

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby Hylander » Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:27 am

K-G is Kuhner-Gerth, Ausführliche Grammatik der griechischen Sprache, a 19th century German grammar. The English language grammars, Smyth and Goodwin, are based on this and other German works. K-G, particularly Part II (syntax) is still very useful for the large number of examples it provides.

K-G at the place cited in your message says that either ου or μη is found in disjunctive indirect questions, but goes on to say that in "so-called nominal questions (introduced by who, how, etc.)," μή is used if the predicate of the first member isn't repeated, but must be understood, but either ου or μη if the predicate is repeated.
That doesn't seem to be exactly what de Strycker wrote, and some of the examples run counter to de Strycker. It's worth looking at the examples (I've bolded ἢ οὔ, where the predicate isn't repeated).

In dem zweiten Gliede einer abhängigen disjunktiven Satzfrage (ob . . oder nicht) steht sowohl οὔ als μή. S. Ai. 7 ὅπως ἴδῃς, εἴ τ᾽ ἔνδον εἴ τ᾽ οὐκ ἔνδον. Pl. civ. 387, d σκόπει δή, εἰ ὀρθῶς ἐξαιρήσομεν ἢ οὔ. Vgl. 394, d. 451, d. 452, e. Phaed. 70, c σκεψώμεθα, εἴτ᾽ ἄρα ἐν ᾄδου εἰσὶν αἱ ψυχαὶ τελευτησάντων τῶν ἀνθρώπων εἴτε καὶ οὔ. Crit. 46, c. 48, b σκόπει, εἰ ἔτι μένει ἡμῖν ἢ οὔ, dann: σκεπτέον, πότερον δίκαιον ἐμὲ ἐνθένδε πειρᾶσθαι ἐξιέναι μὴ ἀφιέντων Ἀθηναίων ἢ οὐ δίκαιον. X. C. 2.1.7 εἰ μὲν ἀνδρῶν προσδεῖ ἡμῖν εἴτε καὶ μή, αὖθις συμβουλευσόμεθα. Pl. ap. 18, a ὑμῶν δέομαι . . τοῦτο σκοπεῖν, εἰ δίκαια λέγω ἢ μή. Civ. 339, a εἰ ἀληθὲς (ὃ λέγεις) ἢ μή, πειράσομαι μαθεῖν. Phil. 21, b τοῦτ᾽ αὐτό, εἰ χαίρεις ἢ μὴ χαίρεις, ἀνάγκη δήπου σε ἀγνοεῖν, κενόν γε ὄντα πάσης φρονήσεως. Andoc. 1.7 εἰ μὲν γὰρ δεινὰ κατηγόρηται ἢ μή, οἶόν τε γνῶναι ἐκ τῶν τοῦ κατηγόρου λόγων. Antiph. 5.14 οὐ δεῖ ὑμᾶς ἐκ τῶν τοῦ κατηγόρου λόγων τοὺς νόμους καταμανθάνειν, εἰ καλῶς ὑμῖν κεῖνται ἢ μή, ἀλλ᾽ ἐκ τῶν νόμων τοὺς τῶν κατηγόρων λόγους, εἰ ὀρθῶς ὑμᾶς διδάσκουσι τὸ πρᾶγμα ἢ οὔ, ubi v. Maetzner; derselbe Wechsel 6, 2. P. Prot. 313b. Isae. 8.9. Dem. 20.83.
In abhängigen sogenannten Nominalfragen (eingeleitet durch wer, wie u. a.) steht μή, wenn das Prädikat des ersten Gliedes nicht wiederholt wird, sondern ergänzt werden muss, aber sowohl οὔ als μή, wenn es wiederholt wird. Eur. Hipp. 927 χρῆν βροτοῖσι τῶν φίλων τεκμήριον | σαφές τι κεῖσθαι καὶ διάγνωσιν φρενῶν, | ὅστις τ᾽ ἀληθής ἐστιν ὅς τε μὴ φίλος. X. Comm. 3. 6, 10 οἶσθα, ὁπόσαι τε φυλακαὶ ἐπίκαιροί εἰσι καὶ ὁπόσαι μή, καὶ ὁπόσοι τε φρουροὶ ἱκανοί εἰσι καὶ ὁπόσοι μή εἰσι. Vgl. 4. 2, 26. Oec. 16, 3 γνῶναι, ὅ τι τε δύναται φέρειν καὶ ὅ τι μὴ δύναται. P. Gorg. 472d ἀγνοεῖν ὅστις τε εὐδαίμων ἐστὶ καὶ ὅστις μή. Dem. 20.163 λογίσασθε πρὸς ὑμᾶς αὐτούς, τί συμβήσεται καταψηφισαμένοις ὑμῖν τοῦ νόμου καὶ τί μή. Aeschin. 1.27 ὁ νομοθέτης διαρρήδην ἀπέδειξεν, οὓς χρὴ δημηγορεῖν καὶ οὓς οὐ δεῖ λέγειν ἐν τῷ δήμῳ. — In anderen Verbindungen und ausserhalb der Frage steht in dem ersten Falle sowohl μή als οὔ. Pl. Menex. 237, e γυνὴ τεκοῦσά τε ἀληθως καὶ μή, ubi v. Stallb. Civ. 486, b ψυχὴν σκοπῶν φιλόσοφον καὶ μή. Crit. 46, c ἐλέγετο, ὅτι ταῖς μὲν δεῖ τῶν δοξῶν προσέχειν τὸν νοῦν, ταῖς δὲ οὔ. d ἐλέγετο, ὅτι τῶν δοξῶν . . δέοι τὰς μὲν περὶ πολλοῦ ποιεῖσθαι, τὰς δὲ μή. 47, a οὐχ ἱκανῶς δοκεῖ σοι λέγεσθαι, ὅτι οὐ πάσας χρὴ τὰς δόξας τῶν ἀνθρώπων τιμᾶν, ἀλλὰ τὰς μέν, τὰς δ̓ οὔ, οὐδὲ πάντων, ἀλλὰ τῶν μέν, τῶν δ̓ οὔ; . . Οὐκοῦν (καλῶς ἐλέγετο, ὅτι χρὴ) τὰς μὲν χρηστὰς τιμᾶν, τὰς δὲ πονηρὰς μή; Lys. 218, b ἐξηυρήκαμεν, ὅ ἐστι τὸ φίλον καὶ οὔ = ἐξ. τοῦτο, ὅ κτλ.


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0021%3Asmythp%3D511
Hylander
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1087
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:16 pm

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby Tugodum » Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:08 am

Thanks a lot! Now it seems to me that de Strycker is plainly wrong both in his over-generalization and in his appeal to K.-G. (which, to be fair, he qualified with "cf."). Let alone that Apol. 18 a4-5 is not a case of "Nominalfrage," if I got the concept right.
Tugodum
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:15 am

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby Tugodum » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:05 am

On p. 14, he uses the word "κυλεια", explaining it in his marginal gloss as meaning any card game. I did not find it in either the LSJ or Modern Greek, so am wondering where he got it from (or how he coined it).
Tugodum
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:15 am

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby daivid » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:33 pm

First off this is clearly easier than the extant texts so to that extent Juan Coderch has done learners of Greek a great service.

This is especially so as the pdf is available free so a learner is able to try it out to see if it is the right level for them.

I have for long especially regretted that, though there is a Latin translation, there is none for Ancient Greek. Hence, now that it has become available, I could hardly not give it a try.

I have read the first page. I spent the whole morning attempting to read it without looking up words or looking at the English version. At that point I gave up and started looking up words and when that wasn't enough I consulted the English version and even then it was only after a struggle the lasted the whole afternoon that I understood the Greek.

Hence it was not for me comprehensible input. Of course that does not detract from its value. To say that we need graded readers implies there is a need not just for easy Geek but texts that are at a high level but not as hard as the extant texts. So clearly this fills a niche.

But it does seem that Coderch rules out ever producing anything simpler.

The vocabulary is quite hard. On the first page there are six words that are unranked by Logeion (http://logeion.uchicago.edu/) due to frequency. To be fair, most of those words do have in margin explanations. But, even if the words are explained, a lot of unfamiliar words is going to make a text much harder.

The other reason is that the sentences are quite long and complex. This concerns me more because of Juan Coderch's reasons. Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, he explains, used very simple syntax with few sub-clauses and that to use such simple syntax in the Ancient Greek version would create something that did not "sound Greek". The quotes are Coderch's so he doesn't explicitly say that simple Greek is bad Greek but I don't think I a wrong to read that implication. The idea that the complexity of the extant sentences is the essence of Ancient Greek has a long history eg http://kart-hadasht.co.uk/anc/greeklang/greekcomp.php#sec2. However, it is a feature of all languages that sentences can be built up with clauses being added to clauses ad infinitum so that the maximum possible sentence is infinite. If Ancient Greek writers tended to favor long complex sentences that is because of the choice of the writers whose work survived not because of the syntactical nature of Ancient Greek.

I have long hoped to see a translation of Antoine de Saint-Exupéry's book because of his simple text so I am a little disheartened that Coderch should rule out producing something in Ancient Greek that is for him so simple.

I am aware that what I have just written will be dismissed because I have said it too many times before.
However, could it just be that I always say that the texts that are available for me to read are too difficult simply because they are too difficult given my current ability for me to progress?
λονδον
User avatar
daivid
Administrator
 
Posts: 2711
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:51 pm
Location: ὁ τοῦ βασιλέως λίθος, London, Europe

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby jeidsath » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:57 pm

I wanted to post the bit from the introduction that you referred to.

The author of the original French text makes usage of a very simple syntax: we hardly find subordinate sentences and, on the contrary, we find lots of simple sentences, sometimes not even connected between them, but just juxtaposed after a full stop. For instance, accumulations of short simple sentences like

The well that we had come to was not like the wells of the Sahara. The wells of the Sahara are mere holes dug in the sand. This one was like a well in a village.

are normal, and we know that in Greek it would be more normal to find these three sentences linked by some type of subordination, something that could sound like

The well that we had come to was not like the wells of the Sahara, that happen to be mere holes dug in the sand, while this one was like a well in a village.

And this leaves us with a double choice:

  • a/ Do we keep in the Greek version this simple juxtaposed style?
    • Advantage: The result looks closer to the original text.
    • Disadvantage: It does not “sound Greek.”
  • b/ Do we rephrase the text to produce something more Greek-sounding?
    • Advantage: It sounds nearer to what Greek language was.
    • Disadvantage: We go away from what the author wrote.

So, if an author wrote He opened the door. He went in should the Greek translation say ἀνέῳξε τὴν θύραν. εἰσέβη something that would be understood by a native Ancient Greek speaker but would not sound natural, or should we rephrase the first sentence into the usual aorist participle and say something like Having opened the door, he went in ἀνοίξας τὴν θύραν, εἰσέβη something that would sound more natural but that would not be what the author wrote?

I have tried to reach a medium term: keeping what the author wrote but, wherever I consider that reflecting the author’s syntax would produce something excessively unnatural, I have produced some subordination between juxtaposed simple sentences.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.
User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
 
Posts: 1944
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby Markos » Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:23 pm

daivid wrote:...I could hardly not give it a try.

I have read the first page. I spent the whole morning attempting to read it without looking up words or looking at the English version. At that point I gave up and started looking up words and when that wasn't enough I consulted the English version and even then it was only after a struggle the lasted the whole afternoon that I understood the Greek.

ὦ χαῖρε, φίλε Δαυίδ.
κεφ. 21:ὁ χρόνος ᾧ σὺ πρὸς τὴν σὴν ῥοδωνιὰν ἐχρήσω, τοῦτό ἐστιν ὃ αὐτὴν πολλοῦ ἀξίαν ποιεῖ.

ἐγὼ φιλῶ τὸ ῥόδον μου. τὸ γὰρ ῥόδον μου κλέπτει τὸν χρόνον μου. ἡ δὲ Ἑλληνικὴ γλῶσσά ἐστιν τὸ ῥόδον μου.
daivid wrote:I am aware that what I have just written will be dismissed because I have said it too many times before.

μὴ γένοιτο. ὁ γὰρ Δαυὶδ τὸ ῥόδον ἡμῶν ἐστιν. :)
jeidsath wrote:I wanted to post the bit from the introduction that you referred to.
The author...

Does this mean that you have access to a version of the Greek text from which we can cut and paste?
οὐ μανθάνω γράφειν, ἀλλὰ γράφω τοῦ μαθεῖν.
Markos
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 2701
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:07 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby jeidsath » Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:28 pm

Tugodum wrote:On p. 14, he uses the word "κυλεια", explaining it in his marginal gloss as meaning any card game. I did not find it in either the LSJ or Modern Greek, so am wondering where he got it from (or how he coined it).


I would think that he means κυβεία. EDIT: More likely, it's meant to be derived from something, as κυβεία is from κύβος. But I can't guess what.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.
User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
 
Posts: 1944
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby Tugodum » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:54 pm

jeidsath--κυβεία does not seem to make sense, as cards are all but cubic. I'm wondering why he even needed a generic name for card games, given that nothing corresponds to it in the original French.
Tugodum
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:15 am

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby Tugodum » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:57 pm

"Alors je ne lui parlais ni de serpents boas, ni de forêts vierges, ni d’étoiles. Je me mettais à sa portée. Je lui parlais de bridge, de golf, de politique et de cravates."
http://www.cmls.polytechnique.fr/perso/ ... prince.pdf
Tugodum
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:15 am

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby Tugodum » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:16 pm

On p. 15, he has "αγνον" instead of "αμνον", apparently with Lat. "agnus" in mind.
I failed, however, to make sense of this "αι τω σε" (standing for the "S’il vous plaît…" of the original).
Tugodum
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:15 am

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby mwh » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:38 pm

αἰτῶ σε
mwh
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 2367
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby Tugodum » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:18 pm

Wow... Thanks a lot!
Tugodum
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:15 am

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby Markos » Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:53 pm

κεφ. 17: ...εἶπεν ὁ ὄφις...- ὅντινα ἂν ψαύω, τοῦτον πέμπω αὖθις ἐκεῖσε ὄθεν ἥκε.

νομίζω ἔγωγε τὸ βασιλείδιον ἐκ Θεοῦ γενόμενον. ό οὖν ὄφις πρὸς τὸν Θεὸν αὐτὸν πέμπει. σύμφητε?
οὐ μανθάνω γράφειν, ἀλλὰ γράφω τοῦ μαθεῖν.
Markos
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 2701
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:07 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby Tugodum » Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:56 pm

Hmm... He consistently writes αγνος (pp. 17-18)...
Tugodum
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:15 am

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby Tugodum » Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:15 pm

p. 21
"– Bien sûr. Et si tu es gentil,..." is translated as: "- δηλον εστιν. και δη και, εαν αγαθος παις ης,.."
What is the force of "και δη και" here? Why would not a "και" alone do the job?
The original continues "... je te donnerai aussi une corde pour l’attacher pendant le jour. Et un piquet."
This part is translated as: "... δωσω σοι πεισμα ινα της ημερας αυτον συνδειν δυνη, σκολοπα δε."
If I understand correctly, "δε" is here for emphasis. But how come is "και" omitted? The closest example I've found in the LSJ does have it: " in a climax, πᾶν γύναιον καὶ παιδίον καὶ θηρίον δέ nay even beast" (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/mor ... ek#lexicon).
Tugodum
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:15 am

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby Hylander » Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:38 pm

From LSJ:

4. καὶ δή and what is more, adding an emphatic statement, Il.1.161, 15.251, Hdt.5.67, Lys.13.4; in Prose, freq. “καὶ δὴ καί . ., ἐς Αἴγυπτον ἀπίκετο . ., καὶ δὴ καὶ ἐς Σάρδις” Hdt.1.30, etc.; καὶ δὴ καὶ νῦν τί φῄς; and now what do you say? Pl.Tht.187c; καὶ δὴ μὲν οὖν παρόντα yes, and actually here present, S.OC31; esp. in a series, ὑγίεια καὶ ἰσχὺς καὶ κάλλος καὶ πλοῦτος δή and of course riches, Pl.Men.87e, cf. Tht.159c, R.367d; εἴτ᾽ . . εἴτ᾽ . . εἴτεδή ib.493d.


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*d%3Aentry+group%3D23%3Aentry%3DD.H.%2F1
Hylander
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1087
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:16 pm

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby Tugodum » Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:48 pm

This much I understand. I just fail to see this "and now..." in the original. So, I thought perhaps it would be a bad style in Greek without it. Yet it seems to me that I encountered sentences starting with "και" alone.
Tugodum
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:15 am

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby Markos » Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:13 pm

λέγουσι τινὲς ὅτι ἡ ἀνθεμίς ἐστι ἀλληγορία τῆς τοῦ de Saint-Exupery γυναικός. λέγω δὲ τὴν ἀνθεμίδα τὴν Γαλλίαν ἀλληγορουμένην εἶναι.
κεφ. 9: σύγε πόρρω ἔσται.
οὐ μανθάνω γράφειν, ἀλλὰ γράφω τοῦ μαθεῖν.
Markos
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 2701
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:07 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby Paul Derouda » Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:15 pm

Tugodum wrote:p. 21
"– Bien sûr. Et si tu es gentil,..." is translated as: "- δηλον εστιν. και δη και, εαν αγαθος παις ης,.."
What is the force of "και δη και" here? Why would not a "και" alone do the job?
The original continues "... je te donnerai aussi une corde pour l’attacher pendant le jour. Et un piquet."
This part is translated as: "... δωσω σοι πεισμα ινα της ημερας αυτον συνδειν δυνη, σκολοπα δε."
If I understand correctly, "δε" is here for emphasis. But how come is "και" omitted? The closest example I've found in the LSJ does have it: " in a climax, πᾶν γύναιον καὶ παιδίον καὶ θηρίον δέ nay even beast" (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/mor ... ek#lexicon).

I would say that you needn't try to pinpoint an exact English equivalent to these idioms, but rather take note of them in their context as you see them, and when you encounter them again, little by little you'll develop a feeling for what is natural in Greek. I haven't read this translation of Le Petit prince, and probably my Greek isn't good enough anyway to tell how good the translation is, but I know I have seen both these idioms many times and I they seem a perfectly normal way to express these ideas in Greek to me.
User avatar
Paul Derouda
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 1825
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby Paul Derouda » Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:20 pm

For "Et si tu es gentil", something slightly more emphatic than simply και seems to be in order, or that's my take on it. As for σκολοπα δε, the idea is that it's an afterthought, and I think it's a very good translation for "Et un piquet". Δε is something midway between English "and" and a weak "but".
User avatar
Paul Derouda
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 1825
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby Tugodum » Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:39 pm

Paul Derouda wrote:but rather take note of them in their context as you see them, and when you encounter them again, little by little you'll develop a feeling for what is natural in Greek

I encountered "και δη και" countless number of times, and I've no doubt that it is natural in Greek. My question was why it is preferable as a translation to "και" alone (which seem just as natural to me).
As for "σκολοπα δε," I would like to see analogous examples from authentic texts, as I've never encountered such usage (the semantics of which, however, is quite clear to me).
Tugodum
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:15 am

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby Tugodum » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:23 pm

On p. 24, he translates "elles hausseront les épaules" as "ουδενος μεν ποιησονται". Does ποιέομαι take genitive? Could not find such a case in the LSJ s.v.
Tugodum
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:15 am

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby Hylander » Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:25 am

I would guess this is the genitive of "value", but the usual idiom is περι + gen. ποιεισθαι. See Smyth sec. 1373:

To value highly and lightly is περὶ πολλοῦ (πλείονος, πλείστου) and περὶ ὀλίγου (ἐλά_ττονος, ἐλαχίστου) τι_μᾶσθαι or ποιεῖσθαι: ““τὰ πλείστου ἄξια περὶ ἐλαχίστου ποιεῖται, τὰ δὲ φαυλότερα περὶ πλείονος” he makes least account of what is most important, and sets higher what is less estimable” P. A. 30a. The genitive of value, without περί, is rare: ““πολλοῦ ποιοῦμαι ἀκηκοέναι ἃ ἀκήκοα Πρωταγόρου” I esteem it greatly to have heard what I did from Protagoras” P. Pr. 328d.


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Smyth+grammar+1373&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0007

"They will consider it of no importance."

I'm not sure whether shrugging the shoulders was an ancient Greek gesture. If it wasn't the translator would have to find a way somehow to convey the idea.

"I encountered "και δη και" countless number of times, and I've no doubt that it is natural in Greek. My question was why it is preferable as a translation to "και" alone (which seem just as natural to me)."

You're asking why the translator made the choices he made. To me και seems colorless, while και δη και seems a little more emphatic and insistent, but I'm not prepared to defend that ad infinitum. You had best ask the translator -- this is, after all, a translation of a modern text by someone who is probably not a native speaker of ancient Greek -- but you might just as well ask Plato or Herodotus why they wrote και δη και instead of just και in specific sentences.

And if και and και δη και are more or less equivalent here, what reason is there to prefer και over και δη και?
Hylander
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 1087
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:16 pm

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby Tugodum » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:32 am

Thanks, the explanation about the genitive of value without περί is very helpful.
Hylander wrote:you might just as well ask Plato or Herodotus why they wrote και δη και instead of just και in specific sentences.
This I find for the most part sufficiently explained in running commentaries to their texts.
Hylander wrote:You had best ask the translator
Somebody who, like me, is learning a language, is not entitled, I believe, to address such question to somebody who has mastered but not volunteered to teach it.
Hylander wrote:And if και and και δη και are more or less equivalent here, what reason is there to prefer και over και δη και?
The premise, implying that two extra words might be used that add nothing to meaning, seems highly implausible to me on general grounds. I believe that a mark of good style is economy of means.
Tugodum
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:15 am

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby daivid » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:44 pm

Hylander wrote:
Tugodum wrote:I encountered "και δη και" countless number of times, and I've no doubt that it is natural in Greek. My question was why it is preferable as a translation to "και" alone (which seem just as natural to me).


You're asking why the translator made the choices he made. To me και seems colorless, while και δη και seems a little more emphatic and insistent, but I'm not prepared to defend that ad infinitum. You had best ask the translator -- this is, after all, a translation of a modern text by someone who is probably not a native speaker of ancient Greek -- but you might just as well ask Plato or Herodotus why they wrote και δη και instead of just και in specific sentences.

Plato or Herodotus were writing for native speakers. The readers of Coderch are all going to be non native speakers though a very very few have a comparable command of Greek ( Coderch I assume is one of those few).

Further as he is translating a children's book it is a very natural expectation that the Greek version will be simple Greek and as such ideal for learners.

To be fair Coderch never claims to be writing for learners. It may be that for him to write simple Greek would be tedious for him to write. In which case fair enough.


Hylander wrote:And if και and και δη και are more or less equivalent here, what reason is there to prefer και over και δη και?


και δη και is a bit harder than plain και. Only a bit but every time there is a choice Coderch invariably goes for the option that makes the resulting Greek harder.
λονδον
User avatar
daivid
Administrator
 
Posts: 2711
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:51 pm
Location: ὁ τοῦ βασιλέως λίθος, London, Europe

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby Tugodum » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:25 pm

daivid wrote:και δη και is a bit harder than plain και
I used to think that plain και at the beginning of a sentence (unless that sentence begins an interlocutor's response) is a mere connective, just as it is in English or French; whereas "και δη και" has normally other functions on top of that, depending on the context. I fail to see how the force of a mere connective can possibly vary in "hardness."
Last edited by Tugodum on Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tugodum
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:15 am

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby daivid » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:30 pm

Tugodum wrote:
daivid wrote:και δη και is a bit harder than plain και
I thought that plain και at the beginning of a sentence (unless that sentence begins an interlocutor's response) is a mere connective, just as it is in English or French; whereas "και δη και has" normally other functions on top of that, depending on the context. I fail to see how the force of a mere connective can possibly vary in "hardness."

It is only very mildly harder but the longer a sentence the harder it gets. So an extra two words does make it slightly harder. On top of that plain και occurs far more often than και δη και.

It would not be worth remarking on if that were an isolated example but it isn't.
λονδον
User avatar
daivid
Administrator
 
Posts: 2711
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:51 pm
Location: ὁ τοῦ βασιλέως λίθος, London, Europe

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby Tugodum » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:39 pm

David--Please forgive my being somewhat slow, as I am a novice: when you say "harder"--do you mean "harder to read"? Or you mean adding emphatic aspect to meaning? If the latter, then what precisely is emphasized in this particular context?
Tugodum
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:15 am

Re: The Little Prince...in Ancient Greek

Postby Tugodum » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:49 pm

p.s. As I said, I do not see plain και in such a position as emphatic at all. Its only function is to make a connection between two parts of a phrase smoother.
Tugodum
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:15 am

Next

Return to Learning Greek

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 56 guests