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participle woes

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participle woes

Postby arslongus » Wed Oct 05, 2005 4:24 pm

I am having some trouble with the participles (ch 23) and just wondered about a couple of things. It seems that translation is somewhat looser when dealing with the participles? The phrase
Certi fructus pacis ab territo vulgo atque senatu cupiebantur
is translated The certain benefits of peace used to be wanted by the frightened commoners and also by the senate.
I suppose I'm stuck on the idea that the perfect passive participle would mean 'having been frightened', instead of simply 'frightened'. In other words, it's not always the case that a pefect passive participle would include the 'having been' idea?
Finally, if anyone has suggestions for mastering the participles, these seem particularly thorny to me, much more so than even Greek participles.
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Re: participle woes

Postby benissimus » Wed Oct 05, 2005 11:01 pm

arslongus wrote:I am having some trouble with the participles (ch 23) and just wondered about a couple of things. It seems that translation is somewhat looser when dealing with the participles? The phrase
Certi fructus pacis ab territo vulgo atque senatu cupiebantur
is translated The certain benefits of peace used to be wanted by the frightened commoners and also by the senate.
I suppose I'm stuck on the idea that the perfect passive participle would mean 'having been frightened', instead of simply 'frightened'. In other words, it's not always the case that a pefect passive participle would include the 'having been' idea?

Hopefully someone else can answer this in more detail, since I am going to bed (at 4pm!). The thing I want to point out: are "frightened commoners" not the same as "commoners having been frightened"?
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
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Re: participle woes

Postby nostos » Thu Oct 06, 2005 3:44 am

arslongus wrote:Finally, if anyone has suggestions for mastering the participles, these seem particularly thorny to me, much more so than even Greek participles.


I can send you via email a ten page (or so) thingy I wrote specifically on participles. I think it explains them thoroughly; lots of what is implied by every grammar I've checked is spelled out in there.

With translation, benissimus said it, 'having been frightened' is the same as 'frightened'. The thing is 'frightened' alone can also mean 'being frightened' (with him [being] frightened by me), 'to be frightened' (the cat is [to be] frightened the moment you walk up to the door) etc., which mean different things.

Just remember that for the perf. pass. part., it's always 'frightened' as in 'having been frightened' (the man, [having been] frightened, walks out the gate).
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Postby Deudeditus » Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:45 am

I hate to seem demanding, but could you email your 10 pages on participles to me? eyl03@hotmail.com. Be sure to name it 10 page participalic thingy, or something so I don't mistake it as junk mail.
gratias et vale
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Re: participle woes

Postby arslongus » Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:42 pm

nostos wrote:
I can send you via email a ten page (or so) thingy I wrote specifically on participles.


That sounds like a fine candidate for adding to the Textkit site..
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Re: participle woes

Postby nostos » Fri Oct 07, 2005 9:00 pm

arslongus wrote:
nostos wrote:
I can send you via email a ten page (or so) thingy I wrote specifically on participles.


That sounds like a fine candidate for adding to the Textkit site..


No no no, I've recently read it in more detail again and I've caught several mistakes and things which need to be cleaned up (ElJon if you've looked through it yet you probably caught the error in the section on translation of tense from main verb to participle).

But anyway I haven't finished my libellum yet. It's going to parallel Wheelock, with a couple of additions that I feel are necessary. In a year or so when it's done I can send it to you arslongus! :P
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