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ch 30

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ch 30

Postby nostos » Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:19 am

On the self-tutorials, number 22:

audivimus cives tam fideles esse ut rem publicam conservarent: We heard that the citizens were so faithful that they saved the state.

If I'm not mistaken, 'conservarent' is reliant on 'esse' for the sequence of tenses, because it appears to me to be a part of the indirect statement. But that would mean the 'esse' is a present historical, because 'conservarent' is imperfect.

Does that mesh? Or is 'conservarent' dependent on 'audivimus', in which case I'm completely lost and would like an explanation.

Thanks!
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Re: ch 30

Postby benissimus » Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:28 am

nostos wrote:On the self-tutorials, number 22:

audivimus cives tam fideles esse ut rem publicam conservarent: We heard that the citizens were so faithful that they saved the state.

main clause: audivimus cives tam fideles esse
...breaks down into...
main verb: audivimus
indirect speech: cives tam fideles esse


result clause: ut rem publicam conservarent


infinitives in indirect speech do not have absolute tense but are relative to the tense of the main verb (i.e. the verb that introduces the indirect speech, audivimus here). therefore, a present infinitive (esse) in a passage of indirect speech that is introduced by a verb in the past tense (audivimus) carries a past meaning.
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
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Re: ch 30

Postby nostos » Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:38 am

benissimus wrote:main verb: audivimus
indirect speech: cives tam fideles esse


result clause: ut rem publicam conservarent


infinitives in indirect speech do not have absolute tense but are relative to the tense of the main verb (i.e. the verb that introduces the indirect speech, audivimus here). therefore, a present infinitive (esse) in a passage of indirect speech that is introduced by a verb in the past tense (audivimus) carries a past meaning.


Right, I understand that the meaning of 'esse' is in this case past. But where does the result clause fit into all this? Is the result clause dependent on the meaning of the indirect infinitive 'esse', or the main verb itself 'audivimus'?

I realise I'm being logic-choppy, but I really want to know.
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Postby benissimus » Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:57 am

Since esse and audivimus are in the same tense relatively, it doesn't matter grammatically. Since the result clause is forecast by tam, which is part of the indirect statement, it makes sense that the verb in the indirect statement (esse) would be the base for the result clause.
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Postby nostos » Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:15 am

Excellent, gratias, benissime.
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