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Supine

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Supine

Postby elduce » Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:03 pm

Can someone explain what the ablative supine means and give an example? Gratias.
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Postby Cyborg » Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:31 pm

the supine in the ablative is not hard to understand, but it is said to be somewhat rare.
from what I know, it only serves one purpose, and that is in formations like this:
(adjective) + ablative supine = (adjective) + to (verb).

example:
haec carmina sunt mirabilia auditu. - these poems are wonderful to hear.
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Postby Lucus Eques » Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:39 pm

Would this then be acceptable:

Mihi est aliquod te dictu, "I have something to tell you"?
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Postby amans » Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:11 pm

Lucus Eques wrote:Would this then be acceptable:

Mihi est aliquod te dictu, "I have something to tell you"?


I don't think so. The Allen & Greenough and grammar only lists the supine in -u as modifying adjectives and the nouns fas, nefas, opus. Perhaps if you just added an adjective to your pronoun, you could use the supine.

But didn't you mean to say tibi instead of te in your sentence? ;)
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Postby Cyborg » Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:07 pm

Lucus Eques wrote:Would this then be acceptable:

Mihi est aliquod te dictu, "I have something to tell you"?


i think not, too, because the ablative supine is only to be used as an ablative of specification (as A&G calls it; M&F calls it "ablative of respect").

haec carmina sunt mirabilia auditu.
these poems are wonderful with respect to reading.
these poems are wonderful in respect to reading.
these poems are wonderful to hear.

I *think* it would be "mihi est aliquod ad tibi dicendum", but i'm definitely not sure.
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Postby Lucus Eques » Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:14 pm

Okay, interesting — which reminds me, doesn't dicere take the accusative of the person as well as the object, like docere (e.g. "Magister pueros res multas docet."), or am I confusing that?
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Postby Cyborg » Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:30 pm

Lucus Eques wrote:Okay, interesting — which reminds me, doesn't dicere take the accusative of the person as well as the object, like docere (e.g. "Magister pueros res multas docet."), or am I confusing that?

The first book I used in my Latin studies used to say both verbs "dico" and "dicto" take the listener in the dative.
So it says "Orbilius quotidie docebat pueros" (as you said) but "saepe pueris dicebat" and "magistra sententias poetarum dictat puellis".
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Postby Lucus Eques » Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:42 am

Perfect! thanks, that makes a lot more sense, especially in the context of the other Romance languages too. Gratias, Cyborg!
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Postby Lucus Eques » Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:32 pm

So then how would one express, "I need something to do," of the same pattern? Egeo aliquod ad faciendum ? In Italian, this "to" is expressed as "da," as in, qualcosa da fare.
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Postby benissimus » Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:50 pm

Lucus Eques wrote:Egeo aliquod ad faciendum?

I see you have discovered the archaic ablative in D, it pleases us! I would say opus est mihi aliquid facere. I don't see a need for the supine, though the gerundive could work.
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Postby Lucus Eques » Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:05 pm

Hehe, "archaic ablative in D"? Non intellego.
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Postby elduce » Tue Jul 26, 2005 6:43 pm

All right, then. I seem to have a better hold of it now, thanks omnibus.
But...Amans wrote, "mihi est aliquod ad tibi dicendum." Looking over the term aliquod isn't it supposed to be aliquid as W wrote aliquis, aliquid (indef. pron.) someone, something.
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Postby benissimus » Tue Jul 26, 2005 7:57 pm

elduce wrote:All right, then. I seem to have a better hold of it now, thanks omnibus.
But...Amans wrote, "mihi est aliquod ad tibi dicendum." Looking over the term aliquod isn't it supposed to be aliquid as W wrote aliquis, aliquid (indef. pron.) someone, something.

more disturbing is the phrase ad tibi. aliquod is acceptable, but really is almost always reserved for adjectival use (aliquid is normally the pronominal form).
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Postby Cyborg » Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:05 pm

benissimus wrote:
elduce wrote:All right, then. I seem to have a better hold of it now, thanks omnibus.
But...Amans wrote, "mihi est aliquod ad tibi dicendum." Looking over the term aliquod isn't it supposed to be aliquid as W wrote aliquis, aliquid (indef. pron.) someone, something.

more disturbing is the phrase ad tibi. aliquod is acceptable, but really is almost always reserved for adjectival use (aliquid is normally the pronominal form).

don't blame on amans, it's my doing the "ad tibi dicendum" :oops: . I was trying to write amans' "i have something to tell you" and i might have adapted from the wrong example on A&G. It's really, of course, "ad dicendum tibi", but nevertheless i don't think i know how to render that sentence in latin. (that's a cue :) )
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Postby Cyborg » Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:36 am

benissimus wrote:more disturbing is the phrase ad tibi. aliquod is acceptable, but really is almost always reserved for adjectival use (aliquid is normally the pronominal form).

I got it from A&G p.317 (click).
The example is ueniunt ad mihi parendum - they come to obey me.
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