

Paul wrote:Now a more interesting question is that concerning the psychological ground of such a valuation.

Paul wrote:And speaking of "ad hominem", yours was a poor and sarcastic reply to what I, at least, thought was a fairly thoughtful post.
You failed to pick up on two points I made:
1. The glee with which the LPs attacked metaphysics. My description of this affect is not an exaggeration. Is such affect born of a scientific spirit?
2. Given that there is no need for the LP to go any farther than to say that a metaphysical statement is simply "not scientific", one has to ask why they went farther and denied all meaning to such statements?
I would also point out that I did not even hint that the logical positivist is a "pervert".
annis wrote:You started a thoughtful post. Any chance this would be heeded by your intended audience was, in my opinion, irreparably damaged when you indulged in the speculation on motivations, all of them ugly.
annis wrote:You failed to pick up on two points I made:
1. The glee with which the LPs attacked metaphysics. My description of this affect is not an exaggeration. Is such affect born of a scientific spirit?
No, but it's irrelevant to a critique of LP.2. Given that there is no need for the LP to go any farther than to say that a metaphysical statement is simply "not scientific", one has to ask why they went farther and denied all meaning to such statements?
Also irrelevant.
annis wrote:But you spent 3 of your 8 paragraphs on utterly groundless and illigitimate speculation about motivation.
annis wrote:... you implicitly accuse people here of a tainted will to power or deep-seated fear.
annis wrote:Sarcasm seemed as good a response as a yawn.

Paul wrote:You are certainly entitled to your opinion. If I detect any argument at all through your use of the emotionally charged terms "indulged" and "ugly", it is the bald assertion that I am guilty of a moral fault;
in fine, you believe that one should not even raise the question of "motive".
Paul wrote:Moreoever, my primary intent was to further conversation, not squelch it. If the "Academy" members hew to Gilbert Ryle's observation that physics and philosophy are not rivals, but that starting from their own presuppositions each asks different questions of the same world, then perhaps fewer threads will founder when someone declares something "not verifiable."

Paul wrote:Rindu,
Why does it matter that a philosopher is "contemporary"? Do you assume that, because they have the latest word, they are therefore "right"? Please bear in mind that 75 years ago the logical positivists were the contemporary philosophers.
Cordially,
Paul
Rindu wrote:I don't understand this comment, actually. What does it matter whether positivism was in vogue 75 years ago? How does this bear on the truth or falsity of the doctrine?

Rindu wrote:Not really as a measure of correctness, no, but I am more inclined to accept the dictates of contemporary philosophy, in the same way as I accept current phyics. Philosophers build on the work of others, and Philosophy is an intellectual discipline which progresses.

Paul wrote:But I am less convinced about the notion of progress in philosophy.
I think one could readily argue that "today's philosophy" has foundered against the rock of relativism. It is hostile towards even the idea of Truth.
annis wrote:Eh? If we omit those literary critics who, after mastering the ghastly jargon-laden logorhea of Foucault and friends, think reading Nietsche entitles them to call themselves philosophers, I can think of no reasonably well known contemporary philosopher apart from Rorty hostile to the idea of truth.
Rindu wrote:The entire project of doing philosophy requires a notion of truth, as far as I'm concerned.
Philosophers once believed that Knowledge is a justified, true, belief, but this is no longer the case. Such an account has been shown to be full of logical error.
Rindu wrote:For instance, substance dualism--the belief that the mind or soul is of a different kind than the brain--leaves us in the dark about a great deal of the human experience. The old view of the soul left it completely mysterious and unsusceptible to scientific study. However, now that naturalism has mostly won the day, and the primary belief is that mind and brain are not distinct, we can embark on scientific studies of the mind.

Shelf space at a bookstore really doesn't mean much. Compare the number of books devoted to alchemy or astrology in the new age section to the number of books devoted to chemistry or astronomy. Does this indicate that Alchemy is a prevailing view? No. Bookstores stock books that sell. In general, highly technical, analytical works of philosophy do not sell well among the general public. Relativism is quite popular nowadays amongst the hoi polloi, however, so bookstores stock books written by 'thinkers' who peddle such doctrines.Paul wrote:Will - I don't think we can omit the members of this class. They continue to wield significant influence at both the undergraduate and graduate levels. It is an interesting experiment to measure the amount of Borders or B&N shelf-space occupied by Derrida, Foucault, and Rorty.
I have no idea why you think those two sentences can't be reconciled. They aren't in conflict at all. The old theory of knowledge was:Rindu wrote:The entire project of doing philosophy requires a notion of truth, as far as I'm concerned.
Philosophers once believed that Knowledge is a justified, true, belief, but this is no longer the case. Such an account has been shown to be full of logical error.
Rindu - I readily agree with the first quoted sentence. But I don't understand how you reconcile it with the second (emphasis mine). But perhaps you are simply referring to Gettier's paper and various responses thereto. If so, then we're dealing with what set of conditions deserves the name "knowledge". Nor do I think it accurate to say "..but this is no longer the case."
Not necessarily. Working epistemologists concede that (K) is false. They are still debating the nature of knowledge, sure, but the majority view is still that (K) is false.It's fairer to say that there is an ongoing discussion of what constitutes "knowledge".
Well, I don't know about Brentano, but, if I recall correctly, Leibniz was as mechanistic as they come. If one is a naturalist, then one does not believe in souls.Aristotle, Leibniz, Brentano, and other psychologists would deny your claim that the "old view of the soul is unsusceptible to scientific study." But if by "scientific" you mean "mechanistic-materialistic", then you are surely right.
"The mechanistic-materialistic investigation of the brain will help us better understand what it is to be human." I suppose you believe something like this. I further suppose that at some level it is certainly true. But from another, and in my view higher, perspective, such a proposition has almost nothing to do with being human.
Rindu wrote:Bookstores stock books that sell. In general, highly technical, analytical works of philosophy do not sell well among the general public. Relativism is quite popular nowadays amongst the hoi polloi, however, so bookstores stock books written by 'thinkers' who peddle such doctrines.
Rindu wrote:Naturalism is a set of assumptions concerning the nature of reality. It really is not logically related to "empiricism," which is an epistemological doctrine. Naturalism can be summed up flippantly as the doctrine that there exists no spooky stuff. Thus, there are no souls, ghosts, telekinetics, etc. The universe is a closed, physical system.
Rindu wrote:...but, if I recall correctly, Leibniz was as mechanistic as they come.
Rindu wrote:Aristotle also had an entirely different concept of "soul" than do we. The psyche is not at all a soul in the modern sense.

Paul wrote:Are you really, dear Rindu, one of those who believes that the vast, deeply compelling, and often terrible range of human experience can be reduced to nothing more than the motion of matter?

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests