threewood14 wrote:
So I have always wondered how everything started. I thought and thought and thought and came to the conclusion that there must have been a start.
Well I believe that with the begining of the universe, also came the flow of time. They go together like a cute couple. But if the flow of time came with the universe, how could anything cause it to start? No events can happen because there is no time right? This brings in God. God started the universe simply because, he was bored! Nothing but Him existed. Time does not apply to God. He is everywhere in the universe and at every point in time always. He has no begining and will have no end.
He knew that all this would eventually happen and its not like He had to wait.
This is how God controls the universe. I said that Time does not apply to Him. So in theory, He is starting the universe at this moment. If He sees something He doesn't like in the universe, He changes the begining slightly to tweak it.
1. You had said that heaven and hell are outside of our universe and thus are not made by God. But you also said that at creation God was the only thing in existence.
2. Your belief that God goes back to the beginning of the world and tweaks it to get a better result brings up a temporal paradox. If something is changed in the past then everything under the influence of time has no memory of the change. If the universe has no memory of a change, then no matter how many times God changed the beginning the current universe is His final alteration and what is, from a deity perspective, the best version of the universe.
Is the continuous reaction of events that determines everything the same thing as fate?
But if the flow of time came with the universe, how could anything cause it to start? No events can happen because there is no time right? This brings in God. God started the universe simply because, he was bored! Nothing but Him existed. Time does not apply to God. He is everywhere in the universe and at every point in time always. He has no begining and will have no end.
So this is how I believe everything started. God first created the branes and jsut banged them together. He knew that all this would eventually happen and its not like He had to wait. Time does not apply to Him. I believe that the fate of the universe is kind of like an atom. See the Solution to the Expansion of the universe thread. I think that God is the supreme ruler of the universe and Satan tries to capture His control. He has suceeded very little and has no where near the amount of control that God has.
This is how God controls the universe. I said that Time does not apply to Him. So in theory, He is starting the universe at this moment. If He sees something He doesn't like in the universe, He changes the begining slightly to tweak it. God is not the perfect unflawed being, but still highly supreme and in control. He has the best intentions for us because HE simply loves us.
I belive that God does not want us to worry about these things too much and HE does not want us to understand Him completely until we go to Heaven. This is why no one does! He wants to be sure that you have faith in Him. He wants you to trust Him; have Faith in Him. For He knows that if you have faith in Him, you love Him. Regardless if you understnad Him or not, He wants trust.
Why do some people not trust God, because they have been corrpted unfortunatly by Satan. He has very little control, but has some control nonetheless.
we can’t say what that reason was
The idea of a flawed one God does not answer the ultimate question
Do you believe He’s responsible for writing the Bible and that He’s letting us know that He wants trust through interpreting the holy script, or how does He communicate His wishes to us?
no comment
What is the ultimate question?
Of course we cannot. I can't really back up why He was bored or whatever. Its a reason just a the same...
So when you say He's not perfect, we're back to the question, who made your God, as something that isn't perfect could always still be created by something that is perfect or at least more perfect than your God.
Yes, but how can you believe that a reason you just made up and you can't back neither logically or any other way (religiously you could back it up by interpreting Genesis that He was bored or something) is anywhere near to the truth.
So, I could make a case that my God has infinite knowledge beacuse HE has made an infinite amount of mistakes,
but taht still does not answer the ultimate question. In fact, I believe that no one will truly be able to answer that question without a debate.
I don't think any reason we come up with will be valid enough to say so.
But if you have infinite knowledge, you don't make mistakes, because you know the exact consequences of eveything.
Now of course I know you don't agree with what I just said, where exactly don't you agree?
we are like God, why do we die, why are aren't we all-knowing, why do we have limited capabilities and why do we have bodies and so on...
Again, logic seems to disappear when talking about a supernatural being...
would have been unresolved. Would we be better ruling themselves, or do we need God to rule us? So he left them to live (he didn't know that Satan was going to rebel; he created him as an angel; after his rebellion, God still let him live, on account of that challenge). We are then their offspring. Satan is trying to prove his claim, God is trying to prove his.People would be better living without God
can murder ever be justified? I don't think so
The Sophists claim that everything is true according to each individual's measure of truth, and thus all theories are equally true and false.
Then I would say that they must admit that their own statement can be false too! For how can they hold that all opinions are equal and not include themselves in this? How can we even believe their principle when the principle itself is relative to the man or group which holds it?
Kalailan wrote:now, the concept of divinity, i think, is an abstraction of the world. "primitive" religions have many deities; they percept the world as many small parts.
an evolution of this perception would eventualy lead to "one god", a further abstraction of the world, now conceived of as one whole thing.
(if this part isn't clear, please do let me know.)
Kalailan wrote:how does it relate to good and bad?
just like the human perception of mathematics isn't the only one possible, yet it is true for us, good and evil can vary from each person and remain true.
I voted "yes" in the poll. I believe there is absolute good and evil. But that's not the same thing as claiming that I understand it, or can discern it all the time. Sometimes I know it when I see it, sometimes I don't.
Democritus wrote:Well, it's clear, but I don't agree with it. What if there actually are gods and goddesses? I mean, what are you going to tell Athena, when she picks you up by the ear and shakes you and informs you that yes, she really does exist, thank you very much? All our reasoning about how we invented the gods won't be much help.
Democritus wrote:Kalailan wrote:how does it relate to good and bad?
just like the human perception of mathematics isn't the only one possible, yet it is true for us, good and evil can vary from each person and remain true.
But one plus one really is two. This is true, independently of my perceptions or opinions or biases, or even all my reasoning and memories. It was true before I got here and it will be true afterwards.
Kalailan wrote:Democritus wrote:But one plus one really is two. This is true, independently of my perceptions or opinions or biases, or even all my reasoning and memories. It was true before I got here and it will be true afterwards.
this is true for you, and me, and everyone who reads this. but imagine an alien organism based on a drop of water. for this alien, 1+1 isn't 2. it's 1+1=<, because a drop of water plus a drop of water don't form two drops, just one bigger drop.
as our brain is not water drop based, we cannot really develop such a form of mathematics. our form of mathematics is the one fit for us - and it works.
Kalailan wrote:anyway, imagine us having nine fingers instead of ten. wouldn't tha change our mathematics?
Emma_85 wrote:But in our defined system of mathmatics 1+1=2 holds true. We invented mathmatics to suit us, and it this system everything works. What happens in reality if you add one thing an other is something totally different.
Democritus wrote:What is the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its radius? Did we invent that ratio? Clearly we did not invent it. If we had invented it, we would have selected a much more convenient number than pi.
We did not invent this, this is external to ourselves. It was true before we got here.
How about this example: What is the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its radius? Did we invent that ratio? Clearly we did not invent it. If we had invented it, we would have selected a much more convenient number than pi. How about the square root of two? The Greeks were very upset when they learned that this number was not a ratio of two whole numbers. If they had selected the value of the square root of two, then they would have selected a number more to their liking.
But they were not in a position to select the value of the square root of two. It is what it is, and it doesn't matter if we like it. It's not a rational number, and that was true before the Greeks even started thinking about rational numbers.
It's true for the aliens too. I will let them know, the next time I see them.
Emma_85 wrote:We may not have invented pi, but we did invent the perfect circle (pi is only that ratio in a perfect circle). But find me a perfect circle in nature on which to test pi... the perfect circle was not something humans 'found', it was invented, because how could it be anything but invented as it just doesn't exist in nature, only in the minds of humans?
Emma_85 wrote:So when I say that humans invented mathmatics that is they set out the basics, within this system there is loads to explore and find. But just think how different all our maths would be if we didn't have a decimal system. What about a set of 12 or even 16 instead of just 10 numbers?
Emma_85 wrote:It might make a huge difference, I don't actually know, but would the number e still be of any importance at all in a system of 12s? What if your alien friends have 12 fingers and not 10?
When I examine it, I am exploring it, not inventing it.
In a base-12 system, or any other base, e is still e and p is still p and sqrt(2) is still sqrt(2). Numbers like p or e have a mathematical meaning independent of any notation. e pops up in a lot of places. It was apparently first discovered by accident by bankers working out compound interest.
I don't understand why 2+2=4, but I know that it is true, and this truth is independent of me and my wishes. I don't entirely understand what truth is, but in many cases, I know truth when I see it. As human beings, about the best we can ever hope to do is try to separate truth from falsehoods, as far as we can distinguish them. With a lot of work, we can extend our ability to distinguish truths and falsehoods, but we seem to always have limits.
(1) Deontologists - who believe that moral 'truths' are self-evident and as calculable as any mathematic or logic. Kandt was one such.
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